“Sound Business”

EP.34: JAYKERS sits down with POETICS, a producer who’s gone beyond making beats and built a real business around his sound.

From crafting melody-driven hip-hop records to working with established artists across multiple lanes, POETICS represents a new wave of producers who understand one thing: talent isn’t enough. You need strategy, discipline, and a real understanding of how the music industry works.

In this episode, we break down the habits that keep producers stuck, how your creative process has to evolve if you want to grow, and what actually separates those who plateau from those who scale.

POETICS also opens up about the moments that tested his path, how he keeps his sound fresh in an oversaturated market, why he’s earned the name “hook master,” and where producers are really making money right now.

This episode of Unfit For Radio is an honest, inside look at what it takes to turn music production into something sustainable—and why most people never make that leap.

Transcript

Tempo: 120.0

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Poetics! What's the biggest live producers are being sold right now?

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Um I would say one of the biggest problems that I see at this time is there's a lot of people that get in the game and they think that they have to pay for everything. So they hit up artists and artists. There's tons of scams that are art they hit up an artist, the artist goes, you can pay me for a beat placement or something like that. I've had people like huge artists that have tried to charge me a grand to get a beat placed with them.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Yeah. And uh and it's literally How are you supposed to make money then? Yeah, and they'll they'll ghost you or they'll throw the song up on a SoundCloud or something. Like it's gotta take it from me. That happens all the time, and then uh one of the other things I'd say is trying to be like a mysterious guy. Like uh there's a whole lane of people now that are inspired by like Playboy Cardi or these or Kanye, where which if you're inspired by Kanye, it's always like a little crazy. But uh they they think that they think that they can just be like Cardi or Kanye, where it's like I don't post for two years and I'm so mysterious. Oh my gosh. Nobody cares at some point. Literally, and then they they finally post and it gets like three views, and it's like, well, you weren't doing anything for two years, it's not that surprising.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Yeah, you gotta keep people's attention. I mean, sometimes you're only there for 10 seconds and then they forget about you, so yeah. Welcome to Unfit Fur Radio with Jakers, downloaded in over 40 countries and loved in more than 150 US cities. I'm your host, Jakers, and I'm so excited for this one. Let's get into it. Let's go. Today's guest is a producer who turned melodies into money and actually built a business out of it. From producing emotional, melodic records to working with artists across the map, and he's turning his craft into a real business. He's doing a lot of what people talk about, but don't actually execute. We got poetics in the building. What's going on, man? Tell the audience a little more about yourself. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Basically, I uh got into the music industry. Um, I originally wanted to be a rapper. Uh no way. Way back in the day in high school. I was making horrible sounds, putting them on SoundCloud. And then when I got to college, I started wanting because I went for a music business degree. I started wanting to be more in the background. Uh like spending uh because I I interned at uh Rocket Town in uh Nashville Tennessee. It's uh yeah, Nashville, Tennessee. It's a but it's a pretty big music venue uh owned by oh, who's that guy?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Who's that guy?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Michael W. Smith?

unknown 3:28

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

I think it's owned by him. No way.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

He's famous. Yeah. Semi-famous.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

But uh, so I interned there and then uh it was crazy because I was the only, I got literally like I was grinding. I was grinding as soon as I got to college. Oh yeah? I was the, I believe, the fur the only freshman to get an internship. That's cool. Which was Rocket Town, because I literally went down there and met with people, like I was literally walked in and I was like, I want an internship.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Like it was Rocket Town.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

That's cool. And then uh I interned after that. Uh I was there and I met Derek Minor because they were doing a uh music video that they were filming there for the song No Lie uh by Tony Tillman and Derek Minor.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

And I met them because I was helping set up the music video because they were filming it at Rocket Town. And then so I then met Doc Watson from RMG, and then we started doing uh some stuff here and there, and then I interned with them, and then my third internship was uh with Sony uh under Provident Label Music Group.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

It's a big Christian uh division of Sony.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

And that was really cool because I got to like I would help edit uh radio spots, which was fun. So like uh the band Red. No way. I helped edit some random radio spots and that sounds fun. Yeah, it was a pretty cool, pretty cool gig. And I learned a ton about uh because I worked with uh a lot of their people on uh their they had a area that was kind of focused on streaming. It was pretty early because it was like 2017, 2018, and they were really focused on streaming, so they were building like Spotify playlists and brands that were doing that. Um so I got in the industry and was working around that kind of stuff, and then uh I was still doing a lot of stuff with Canon and Derek Minor, and um I started getting into production because I would be on the road with them, and I'd have my laptop from school, yeah, and I was just making beats on the road because it was something to do along the way. Yeah, while we're driving from one music venue to seven hours away, might as well just start making a beat.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Yeah, what else?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

I mean there's not a lot to do. That's cool. And uh then I started liking making beats more than doing vocals, and it was something that I felt like I was actually like good at.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

So I started focusing there, and then Canon helped kind of show me like the how to mix things a little bit better and how to uh structure songs, and then he took you under his wing, kind of yeah, and we we had a very like we were it we were friends before I was even like producing. So it was like we were already connecting, then I was like, hey, I made these beats, and then he was like, These aren't good, but I'll help you make them better. That's what you need though.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

You don't need somebody to blow smoke.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

I mean, yeah, well, and and also you don't need someone to just blow you off. Yeah, because uh there's a lot of people that are just like, this is bad. Don't call me again. Yeah, you don't want that, but uh so then we started working and working and uh throughout the friendship and we'd spent a lot of time in the studio together. So it happened very naturally to where then we were making music and we'd get in the studio and be coming up with ideas together. And I like I I was really good at coming up with hooks. That's been one of my things is I'm I'm really good at like coming up with hook patterns and melodies, so it's like you're a hooker. Yeah, and I'm also very good at when I'm with an artist, yeah, pushing them to like stay focused. Okay, and like there'll be a lot of artists get in the studio and they come up with like a song and a hook, and then they're just like, Okay, cool, we're done for the day. Uh and it's like I'm more like, no, let's knock out it, let's knock out the verse. Yeah, dude, let's survive it right now, and then we can structure some stuff around it, you know? Yeah, let's keep working. And uh, yeah, so then I just started doing that, and ever since then it's been uh kind of I I I have a bad habit of every year or two just doing something, like pivoting and doing something completely different. I've done soundtracks for video games. I've done uh there was a phase where two, three years I was focusing on lo-fi music and lo-fi beats. And uh ever ever ever since then I've always worked with artists. Like I I almost I don't think a year has gone by where there hasn't been a KJ52 song that I've produced or mixed and mastered for.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

He likes your beats, I can tell.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Well, and even if I'm not producing, I'm mixing for him. You know that's cool. There's a band called Whosoever South.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

That I do a lot of their stuff, their country music. No way, I did not know this. Oh yeah. Uh I've probably done 20, 30 songs for them. Oh, wow, that's amazing. And then and then now I'm mixing a lot of their stuff too. But it's uh it's cool. And then uh over the past year, I started really focusing on building my own thing. Because I spent, I mean, at this point, 10, 10, 10, 11 years, I was focusing on other people.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

And building their brand.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Their content, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

And helping come up with hooks for them and all this stuff. And then I just started being like, I'ma just throw everything out there doing my own vocals, doing creative stuff that actually like fulfills me. Do you have your own thing?

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

I got burnt out doing sync music and doing because it didn't feel creative. Like it didn't feel like so. I started literally doing music that people are like, bro, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 10:17

That's the attention you want.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Like you kinda, yeah. I I like I've always liked the feeling when I talk to someone in person and then they go, Oh, I get it now. Like I understand you a little bit better because it's like they don't quite know why I do stuff I do.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Cause you're random, but you're entertaining. Like you keep it very creative, and that's what's really cool to follow, follow your page uh specifically on Instagram. It keeps me going. I'm like, what is he doing now? Like he's out there dancing in the backyard with his kids' toy. Like, this dude is just fun. Like, it's cool.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

And then I also try to like like one thing you'll recognize is if if you see a lot of the songs I post now, it's like nothing sounds the same. Like it's all every song's mixed differently. Every song I make different producer choices. It's I'm just having fun with it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

So how's that happen? Like, is that just something that you think is like tied into you, or do you just get sick of things and you have to switch it up? Or what what do you think draws that out of you where where you like to switch lanes so much?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

I think a lot of it is uh I don't even really know. I guess it's just I kind of get tired of whatever I'm doing for the most part. Um like even jobs that I worked in the past.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Like I worked at Starbucks for a year and a half, no. Two two years.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

And then a beatmaker at Starbucks?

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah. It's never happened. Wow. But like I got tired of that, and then I did uh other odd jobs here and there, and it's like if there's if it becomes too formulaic, I I hate it. Okay. Like if I there would there was even a phase where I was Canon knows this. Like we we talked about it in person where I was just like, dude, I'm sick of making sync music. Because there it you get money from it, but it's like there's no creativity. They want uh a horn section that's going woo! And then it's gotta be something about a touchdown or yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

No, I get it, and and it it doesn't live very long. Like they play it and then it dies out, and then you gotta create more and more and more and more.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Well, I will say a lot of sync music, like we're still getting checks off knocked out, which was I think 2019. Okay. 2020. So six, seven years later. Six, seven, six, uh, seven years later. I heard that. We're still we're still seeing like oh, who used it? Uh Hennessy used it for an ad? That's so random. Oh my god. But it's like it's cool. Like, I get why a lot of people focus on sync, but it has to be your thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

It just doesn't sound like it's your thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Well, I just don't like it. Like, I don't listen, because even when I listen to sync music, like uh I would say the peak sync music is the that friggin' Spider-Man soundtrack. And I tried listening to it and I I just don't care for it. I can't listen to it in my I can't l I like that one post Malone song. Uh the one with Tim and Sway Lee. Oh, I I think I know that one Sunflower? Yeah, yeah. I like I like that song, but I I a lot of sync music. I'm just like, there's no creativity. It's like you can tell it was made with the intention of this is for an ad for the NBA or something, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

That's a different take than I thought you would say. That's pretty interesting. That's cool though. I'll take it. Honesty. So, what's something that you were doing early on that didn't work and you still see other producers doing today?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

I'm trying to think of that's okay. I don't know if I have a great answer. Um we'll take any. One thing I would say is expecting money very early on. Like if you have no brand and you hit up an artist who isn't even like a big artist, uh, a lot of the time they just want to do splits. Like, because they're an artist that doesn't have like an established following doesn't have $500 to throw down for every single song they release. So a lot of the time they want to do splits, and there's a lot of producers that get in there and they think Morgan.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Explain what a split is. I didn't mean to cut you off.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Oh, yeah, no, you're good. Uh splits, I just get used to saying terms, but splits is when we release a song, if it's through DistroKid or Tune Core or whatever, it's like we are splitting the song 50-50. Uh-y you get your money that comes in every month after it's I think three months the money starts rolling in um from streaming services and all that. And most people uh who aren't like huge artists, even even there's even huge artists that do it. Like they'd rather just do splits. Okay. Um and it's we split it 50-50. Uh, or even like there's artists that I've worked with that I don't get even 50%, I get like 20, 25. Oh, and it's but it's also like that's not a big deal if they're a big artist and they're also putting a lot of money into the song. Yeah, like they're we're gonna go and pay two grand to get this big artist on it. It's like I'm cool with 20% then. But uh there's a lot of people doing that, and uh a lot of producers shoot themselves in the feet because they get like their first placement and then they go right off the bat. Okay, so how much am I getting paid for this? Oh geez. And it's like, bro, we just finished the song. The song isn't we don't even know if we're gonna release this song. Yeah. And they might shelf it just because that guy did that. Or or was just annoying about being a little too pushy. Wow. Uh and that's that's also another thing, is just because an artist recorded your song does not mean it's coming out. Okay. I had songs, uh, there was one song. It was uh there was a newer song that was Derek Minor and Cannon. We literally recorded it like five years ago. All right. And then it finally it finally came out, but I had almost like wrote it off because I was like, it's probably not gonna ever come out. Oh it's been like five years.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

So during that, you can't do anything with that track, it just sits on the shelf because you already no, it's it's theirs.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

If if for me personally, because I'm also I make so many beats, I make I'm working on so much stuff that once an artist records to it, I'm just like, it's yours. When we release it, we can talk about splits or payment or whatever. But uh I kind of write it off. Like, I there's a lot of other producers that I work with who will get like really excited because I connect with a big rapper on Instagram or something, we send beats and they're like, I like this beat, and I'm like, Okay, cool. And then they're like, dude, imagine if this guy releases this song and we produced it, and I'm like, there's a high chance that's never gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah, you can't celebrate before it happens.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah, you can't get too happy. It's like uh when you're talking with a friend and they're like, uh they're like, oh, we should all take a trip to Italy or something. And it's like, you can't just be like, I'm going to Italy now.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Yeah, yeah, like it's happening tomorrow. No, you still gotta get the play tickets and yeah, all this.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yeah, and it might not happen.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Things happen in between. Yeah. Not all plans turn out.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

But that's that's the music industry in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Wow. So uh what actually makes a producer successful right now? Is it the talent or marketing?

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Um, I would say the most the biggest thing that makes a producer successful right now is networking. Okay. Um if you know the right guy who is an AR or is a producer that works with big artists directly or is friends with people, there's a lot of ways to get in. Just you network with them. Like I had a guy who because I'm also very uh good at capitalizing on like I'm I get a viral video, I'm watching, I'm checking my Instagram for those blue checks that are a big producer or engineer or the audience, you're surveying the audience. Yeah, yeah. I'm looking at them and then I go, oh, this guy produced for Post Malone. This guy produced for Eminem, this guy, and then I'm hey man, saw you liked my post. I'd love to network with you and maybe work on something.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

That's how this podcast happened.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

I mean, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Is is your networking. I'm always watching, I'm always looking to capitalize, and that's that's another thing is uh a lot of producers are generally just lazy. They're not willing to put in the work, they're not willing to put in the work, they're not willing to try to build their own brand or anything. Um but I would say the biggest thing is networking.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

It's if you live, if you live in Atlanta and you are not actively trying to go and meet with other producers in Atlanta, you're crazy. Like there's people everywhere who are directly working with huge artists.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

I think some people just don't um they have too much pride. Yeah the pride's what takes them out. And you're removing the pride. You're like, hey, let's work together. I mean, it doesn't matter if I made music for them or them. I want to do something right now, you know, type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Oh man, if you look at my production discography, I was looking at it the other day. It was literally like I have a playlist on Spotify called hashtag prod by poetics. Okay. And it is, I think, like 700 songs that I've been involved in. And if you go and look at it, it's everybody. It's I've like it's it's YouTube rappers, it's Christian rappers.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

You've done work with Lazy Bone and KJ52 and Canon.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

I worked with Twisted, the Juggalos. Wow. I worked with I've worked with I literally went to the gathering of the juggalos one year.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Oh my gosh. So out of that catalog, who, when you see it, who like just strikes you like, I can't believe I I worked with them.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Like, is there any Lazy Bone was a big one for me because Bone Thugs and Harmony was like my I grew up listening to East 1999. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

You can't say those about my neighbor.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

But that album, oh my gosh, that album was eat the whole East 1999 Eternal.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Oh, I'm telling you, creeping on a come-up, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Mikela, Mikela, Mikilla Kabby. I love that album. Uh I I I haven't worked with them, but I'm also cool with Crazy Bone, who is uh, and then anybody who you talk to in my friend circle knows that uh Busybone is one of my top probably those are my three favorite bones. Probably top 15 is Busybone.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Has he have you worked with him yet or not yet?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

No, no. I tried to I tried to work with him at one point and uh he tried to sell me a feature and then I was like, I'ma just I'ma just kind of back up. I don't work like that. That happens a lot where you try to network two and someone just kind of goes, okay, cool. You want a feature? And it's like, no, I was I was wanting to send you beats. Well, we don't need beats. You want a feature? No. Wow. But that's cool. And then uh KJ was a big one for me too, uh, because I grew up listening to KJ. I grew up listening to that Deer Slim song. Oh, Deer Slim. Uh all of his early, like I used to go on Rapzilla and watch the freestyle videos, and I I what I was the kid that lived perpetually online and discovered constantly was discovering music on YouTube. I couldn't tell at all. No, no, man. I've I actually started recently over the past year getting into books. Uh, and it's I can't even do books. I do audiobooks. So I can't can't focus.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

So out of the last year, what book has has stayed around the longest? Oh, none of them. None of them. They all come ago.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

I've been listening to a lot of uh audiobooks? Audiobooks, but it's like fiction stuff, and uh there's one series that I was listening to. What? And I've listened to several of them just because they're actually pretty funny.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

What's Poetics listen to?

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Oh man, you don't want to get me started on my music that I listen to. I listen to I listen to the Assassin's Creed audiobooks. Uh a bunch of Agatha Christie books. Oh really? Yeah. No way. Some of the Star Wars books, The Hobbit, Steve, a bunch of Stephen King. The Silent Patient. That's a really good book. Have you finished it? Uh wait, which one?

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Any of them.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh the Stephen King one I was doing was. Oh, where'd it go? In the tall in the tall grass. That's a short one. Okay. Uh, and then I got some of the Splinter Cells. This book. Everyone in my family has killed somebody. No. Someone. That's what that's like. That sounds interesting. I'll have to look into that. It's kind of like uh, have you ever seen the movie Knives Out? No. That's a very good movie. It's like uh murder mystery type. Someone died and everyone's a suspect. Oh, like Clue? Yeah, yeah. Or like, or also like any old Agatha or Christie book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yeah. So uh what was your DA journey like?

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Uh from early, okay, so the very, very beginning, I literally just had audacity.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Uh, and then as soon as I did a little bit of Googling, I found out about FL Studio. Uh, and that was 2011, I think, was when I first got FL Studio, and I didn't even make beats for like four years. I was just trying to use it for recording. Um, and it was a little more easy to learn than because Audacity, I don't know, you know Audacity. Yeah, it's the most basic thing on the planet, and there you can't really do almost anything. Yeah, like garage band. Yeah. But FL Studio is like soon as I figured it out, and I I like I I remember going on some forum and it said like Mac Miller and Ninth Wonder both use FL Studio. And I was like that hip-hop of that hip-hop angsty teen who hates mainstream rap that was like Ninth Wonder's one of the best. I love that. So then I got like uh, dude, I was that edgy little kid who hated Drake and Lil Wayne and everybody. And I was like, I only listened to Mortal Technique. Oh boy. Aesop rock.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Did you like uh what is it? Mafia three 3-6 mafia?

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Oh yeah, 3-6 mafia I didn't like until later when I started getting uh because I it was still like anything that was that era, I hated when I was in like middle school because I was into lyrical rap. Oh so it was like and then I started to kind of around like 2012, 2013, I started getting into Yellow Wolf.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Yeah, he was interesting a little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

And he was super tight with DJ Paul from 36 Mafia.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

And uh, so then I kind of got into some of that, and then like when I was 2014, 2015, one of my friends showed me uh Dirty Sprite 2 by Future, that album, and then that started getting, and then it was also Waka Flocca that started getting me into where I could listen to music that wasn't lyrical, miracle, spiritual rap. And then I started getting into everything.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

That Walk of Locca, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

One that album go Flocca Belly, yeah, yeah. That was a great album. I think it was actually a mixtape.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Didn't it also have the black and yellow and all those other ones that came out at that time, like during that Super Bowl era?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Black and yellow was Wiz Khalifa. Oh, you're right. That's a good that's a good one too, though. You're right. I mixed it in the middle of the king. He's another that's another Sync King is Wiz Khalifa. He's cool. He did uh that uh that song Shell Shocked that was huge. He had that uh I taught you you. And then uh he had the Fast and Furious one too. Yeah. That was like he's like a sync.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

What'd you think of uh Twister? Like the Adrenaline Rush album. Oh, I love that whole era too. That was like the first hip-hop um so Twista Adrenal Tech Nine. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, he's my top five. Twista Adrenaline Rush album, um Get It Wet was the first rap song I like actually ever officially listened to. Oh my gosh. Listening to that girl rap in there.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

I loved there was one specific song by Twista featuring T-Payne called uh Creep Fast, I think it was. I think I know what you're talking about. And it's it was really cool because uh T-Pain like raps raps on it. Yeah, and that was cool to hear at the time.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

But that was a newer, newer, older one.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah, it was I think like 2005, 2006. But then Twista comes in. Watch as I hit him in the get him in a bit of a hundred songs a second, I mean a hundred lyrics a second. But I was I was a huge like that's why I was saying like lyrical rap, underground rap. I was a diehard Tech Nine fan, and that was another one that was cool to network with. I haven't worked with him, but I'm cool with Tech Nine. We've talked and he like follows me on social media and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

So that that that's one of my bucket list, yeah, Busybone Tech Nine.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

I had a bunch of Christian rappers get angry at me one time because I said I don't trust somebody who doesn't like Tech Nine. And they were mad that I was like saying because I guess there was also like a whole Christian hip-hop, some kind of beef with uh Tech Nine made a song called Holier Than Thou, where he talked about that uh he wanted to learn about God and the truth. Uh he reached out to the truth, and the truth left him on scene, basically. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

But that's so they thought it was like blasphemy or something, they didn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

And that was that was like 2008 or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

But that's crazy. Was there a specific moment, beat, or placement where things really uh just clicked? Uh what do you mean by just clicked? Like just you know that really meant something like, you know, like, you know, was monumental.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Uh for me, for the most part, like my favorite moments, uh it's it's usually not even about the music, it's about like the connections and the the friendships you make. Okay. Because it's like my favorite memories from music are like when me and Canon were in the studio working on a song, and uh like we were working on a song called Run Baby Run. And that's like several, I think that was like 2019, 2018, and we were working on it, and like I made the beat, and then like we came up with the hook, and I was like trying to get him to write a verse, and he's like, I don't know. And then I was like, I was like, bro, I'll write a verse right now. And it was like before I was even like doing it. It was literally a challenge. Like, I was like, I'll write a verse, you write a verse, we'll send it to Derek, and he gets to pick whose verse goes on the project. That's cool, and then we did it and we sent it, and Derek was like, I'm just doing it both. You're you're just both gonna be on it. And I was like, Okay, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah, that's competitive, though. I mean, that really challenged him.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, it's I I and like most of my favorite memories are like the being in person, like actually doing the work, the conversations you have with someone at 4 a.m. when you're on the road, and like uh, and like like I worked with uh there's a country band called Rehab.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Uh you probably knew if you would know one of their songs, it's the bartender. I really did it this time. Broke my rolled to have a good time. But uh I went on tour with them several times, uh, where I would I would go on the road with them and I was the merch guy, and then I'd go to the hotel and the singer Danny, we would set up a mic and just start recording music while we're on the road. Oh wow. And so it's like getting no sleep at all. It doesn't sound like it, no. And uh, so we're connecting, and it's like my favorite memories, like the stuff that really sticks with me is more that than even the big crazy sinks, you know. Like I had a I had a song in 2K21, uh, the NBA 2K21, and it's like I forget about it. I I forget about until someone else like brings it up, like having songs and see the CW shows, and we had a song in Love Island, uh, the TV show and all that, and it's like I forget about it, but I I don't forget about like the memories of people. That's cool. That's more meaningful to you. I don't forget about uh when I was at the gathering of the juggalos and I saw ICP without their makeup.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

I was like, Oh, that's memorable.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

It was one of those like surreal, like that guy looks

Marker 1

SPEAKER_01 35:08

really familiar.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Do you really look like that? Um what usually comes first for you? Is it like melodies or drums or just the vibe?

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Uh the vibe is definitely the first thing. Uh if you come to my studio and you see me cook up, I'm playing like I because I got I got two screens right in front of me. This is FL Studio, and then this one, I put up like a video game let's play or something and mute it. Okay. Or like uh like I try to get a vibe going off the bat. Like if I'm like I'm trying to cook up something dark, it's like I put on an old Batman Arkham City Let's Play or something, and I have that going on in the background. And then it's interesting because it used to be formulaic. Like it used to be I used to cook a beat, I would start the melody, start building the melody, and then drums.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

And then ever since then, over the past several years, it's been like, dude, I might start this song with a hi-hat and then structure everything around that. I might start this with an 808. I might start this with uh trying to come up with a creative pattern before I even add anything. I'll sometimes now I'll do a whole song uh the whole drums and 808s and everything before I even put in a melody. Like I don't structure out the entire song.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

You have all the whole rhythm and everything in there before.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Because yeah, because it's like you you approach it differently if it's like I started doing something where it's like I'll not even put the 808 in the song yet, or the I'll not even put a hi-hat. I'll I'll just structure the drums without a hi-hat so that I can come up with the bounce of the drums. Because a lot of the time people rely on the hi-hats for the bounce.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

To like structure, because it's like when you're listening to it, the hi-hats what you're automatically tapping your. But it's if I do no hi-hat, uh I gotta start getting something where I'm bouncing my head without the hi-hat. So you gotta put something else in there. Yeah, and then I'll throw the hi-hat in later. So it's like that's a different point of view.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

And sometimes I try to get that with the melody before I even add drums. Like I try to get something where it's like I gotta be nodding my head, you know, before the I even bring in drums, you know.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

So even your techniques, you like to come about a differently all the time.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Yeah, and I try to use sounds that I don't normally use. Like I haven't used a clap in maybe months or even a year. Because it's like I'm I I got tired of every song hearing that clap to where I was like using snares, and then I even got to the point where it's like I might use a snap or a rim shot instead of the clap, yeah. Cause it's like if it's not creative, it's like, why are we doing it? You know, no, that's really true. If it's not art, you know.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

That's really I like that. How how do you uh how did your production change compared to when you first started?

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Uh I would say when I first started, I was relying a lot on my inspirations musically, but like it was a lot of like trying to copy stuff, whether it was uh I've have you been kind of like involved in Christian hip hop scene for a while? Yeah, so like 2014, 2015, 2016, everything, everything was every single artist who hit me up, it was I want you to make a beat like this one. Oh I want you to make a beat. I used to joke with Canon. I was like, the next guy who hits me up and says, I want to beat the sounds like green light by NF.

unknown 39:31

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

That's a mess depth though.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

I want to beat the sounds like no chains by KB.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Yeah, that's like I want a picture of the Mona Lisa, but don't paint the Mona Lisa.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Just print print it on TV. What? But it's like I that used to be huge comment. I it still is to this day, but it's a it's at least nice now that most of the time it's like if they're hitting me up, they're referencing something I already made, and they're like, I want something like that beat you did for Canon, or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

It's like I like that more. They they don't get ghosted.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Yeah. Well, I probably wouldn't even ghost somebody. I'm I'm a I'm a talker too. So it's like even if someone like I spend way too much time just talking to people on Instagram because they hit me up, and before you know it, I'm giving them advice about Instagram reels or something.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

That's cool. I mean, that's the that's the community friendship guy in you. That's that's you. That's cool. That's you building, you know, your networking, you know, at all times.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

What is uh your go-to plugin?

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Um for drums, I love there's a plug-in called Sausage Fattener. Huh? It's it's literally what it's called.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

Sausage, you need your sausage fattened.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

I'll show you a picture of it. It's hilarious. I gotta see this. It has a giant sausage on it. No way. It's by a company called Data Life, and it has that. And that's funny. As you as you use more effects, it gets angrier. The sausage changes as the motion, he gets angrier as it gets more aggressive. It's hilarious. Oh my gosh. It's hilarious. It's basically like a compressor that makes things sound really big. So you can throw it on like a drum that's pretty weak, and it'll make it like Kanye levels where it's like those big thick drums. Yeah. Um sound like they're dubbed or something. Yeah. And so I use that a lot. Uh recently I got Ozone for I finally got Ozone, the mastering plugin, and that was a big game changer for me. Uh uh M Audios, Auto Tune. I love that plugin. Uh, it's probably the cleanest. I've had like five or six different auto-tune plugins, and that's probably the cleanest one, and I really like that. Um I don't use a whole lot of other plugins though. Valhalla for reverb. I like Valhalla. That's a really good plugin. That's pretty much it though. I don't use I don't use a lot of plugins. I use a lot of FL Studio stock stuff. Oh. That would shock people. They're their basic uh their basic reverb, their basic delay, their basic uh parametric EQs and stuff like that. Like I like a lot of those more than the and I part of that is I watched a lot of other producers talk about that they used stock plugins from FL Studio for stuff. Wow. Like I think that I think there was a video of uh Metro Boomin talking about that that's how he produces. Like he it was it was an old video, but he was saying he doesn't really use anything besides stock plugins.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Wow. That's a different answer than I thought you would expect. Um you kind of touched on this one earlier, but uh, what's something about your workflow that would really surprise people?

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Um I don't know. I don't think there's a whole lot that I do that's surprising. Um sounds like your dedication though for sure. Yeah, I'm very like goal-oriented of like I gotta do my I gotta do my video at least every day. I gotta do I gotta hit up people. Uh like I generally every day hit up like at least 10 artists or producers that I'd like to work with uh and try to network with them just to get something moving. Um And it's crazy, man. Some of the people that will just respond to a DM. Yeah. Uh you grew up. How old are you? Well, you can cut it out if you want.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

No, this is this is fun. How old do I look?

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Um 35.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Thank you. That's it's a little older than a lot of people usually get me at, but I'm older than that. I am uh 1985 baby. So I just I just hit 40 last Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Okay. Yeah, I'm 1995. Oh. So I just hit 30.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

So I'm I'm 10 on you.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

So do you remember uh Andy Milanakis?

SPEAKER_02 44:48

That sounds very good.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Early MTV days.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Oh, MTV?

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Yeah, that's I got bees on my head, but don't call me a bee.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Yes, I remember that. Back when MTV actually existed.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

I was randomly uh talking to him last night because I literally just like hit him up on Instagram. No. And I was just like, hey man, this would sound crazy, but I think we could do something kind of cool together.

unknown 45:16

No way.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

And it's just like, but doing just throwing stuff out there.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

You don't stop. That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

That's I love it. Like I I'm I'm I'm also just a people person. So it's like uh, and that's another reason that I really wanted to start focusing on like building my own brand and uh doing my own stuff on social media and not taking any of it too serious. Is I've always like when I was in the studios with Derek and Canon and everybody, they would always make comments about that I was funny, like and I was fun to be in the studio with. That's cool. And I felt like for years I wasn't showing anybody that. And it was literally just like this what this weird beat.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

And then it was literally like, put a little dip on my chip, put a little sauce on my fries, put a little dip on my chip, put a little sauce on my fries. I ain't gonna broke no more. I ain't gonna broke no more.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

And it was it was this dumb song that was like the old like little John, yeah, where it was just like a chorus the whole time. And I was telling, I was even telling them at the time, I was like, bro, we do a video where we're just in a kitchen going crazy, oh yeah, throwing food all over and stuff. I was like, it'll go so viral. Oh my god. But everyone's so serious, you know?

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Yeah, they want to protect their uh their personal and their personalities. How do you pro Oh, it's a great question. How do you protect your sound from getting uh repetitive or stale?

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Uh I would say a big thing for me is constant I'm constantly listening to different types of music. Uh that helps inspire. Even in hip hop, like I'm listening to everything. There, like there's a group called Machine Girl that I've been listening to a lot recently that's not even hip-hop. They're like experimental, distorted, like they mix like punk with like jungle music. What? And like just if you listen to Machine Girl, they're crazy. Uh that is interesting. JPEG Mafia, but then I'll go listen to LP and Aesop Rock, and then I'll listen to Cage. I don't know if you remember Cage back in the day. Yeah. Oh, so good. And then you go, like, I'll go and listen to then like Jim Jones, we fly high. Oh my gosh. And then Bounce O. And then I listen to new music too. Like, I go every every week, I listen to the whole Spotify playlist, no new joints on Spotify.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

So you stay current.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Every week, every single week. I go through that. I go through my release radar. I go through friends Spotify playlists. I I listen, uh, people send me music on Instagram. I listen to it. Dang.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

A lot of it, a lot of it's not great, but the fact that you listen to all that, that's that's impressive.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Yeah, I listen to everything. And then I listen to a lot of podcasts too.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

No way.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

Any favors?

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Uh, my favorite right now is there's a podcast called Creepcast. Oh. That's uh an animator named Meat Canyon. He makes like uh horror, kind of like a lot of scary but also like funny videos on YouTube. And it's him and another guy, and they read uh do you remember creepypastas? Yeah. That whole thing in like 2011 that was like people would write scary stories on the internet. Yeah, it's they read those, and it's like they they're also like joking around, kind of like making fun of it. Oh, but it's like a whole podcast of that. That's one of my favorites, and then I listen to a lot of comedy podcasts too.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Okay. Maybe we might pop up on your list. Yeah, you're like, hey, I was on that one. Uh so where is your real money at right now? Is it from your placements, your streams, your licensing, your raps?

SPEAKER_01 50:14

My job.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Your after hours job.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Yeah. But uh that was that I would say that was actually something that helped me musically was getting a real job. A different job to take you out of the environment for a minute, or what? To to get me out of it, to get it to where I didn't need, because I was I told my wife, uh I was I was like two years ago, I was having like mental, like I would have like stress-induced panic attacks.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

No way.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Because I was so stressed about what if I don't get enough money this month from music. I have to sell beats to some guy that I don't want to sell a beat to.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

I have to make that custom track for this guy that I that I don't want to work with. I have to say yes to this, I gotta say yes to this. And when I actually went and got like a job, it was like, no, now I can say no to these people. Yeah, you have more freedom. And so then I was able to focus more on what I like wanted to focus on. And uh that's been good. I get I get a decent amount of money from royalties. Uh I sell it's it's so rounded. Like you get that one of the best things you can do in the music industry is kind of become a jack of all trades. That's a thing a lot of people say, yeah. But learn how to mix because you can mix for people, and that's also a networking tool that I use a lot. I hit up an artist and I say, I'd love to send you beats. I can also mix and master if you need anything. And a lot of the time they're like, Well, I don't need beats, but I could use someone to mix this song. And then that's that's a opening up the door, and you're probably gonna do something production-wise when you're mixing, yeah, that you get the credit.

SPEAKER_02 52:13

So it's like and you're already there, so I mean, now you have the opportunity that somebody else didn't because you said yes to something else.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

And even like uh like I get I get money from engineering for people. I work, like I said, with uh the band Rehab. I I mix stuff for them that I haven't even produced. Uh Whosoever South, I produce and mix a lot of their stuff, and then like KJ and a lot of other people like that, and then I'm now selling features. I'm doing like some promotional uh things for like gaming companies and stuff, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

Fun.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Um there's a website I signed up for called Key Mailer.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Key Mailer?

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Yeah, it's really cool. And it's uh you sign up as a because I have a decent following, I was able to sign up and I get free video games from like some major companies. Wow. Just for just post a video about it. Just post a video about the song, about the game. So is that where some of that came up?

SPEAKER_02 53:21

I saw that. I was like, man, he's really sh like putting these video games out there. He found a sponsorship or something.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

There's some random games that I get in, and uh That's cool. Yeah, so there's that. There's I think a lot of uh I think a lot of producers and rappers focus too much on trying to make it their main bread and butter when it's like you might need to just do some Uber on the side to cover the bills, and that's fine. Do do that rather than say yes to some horrible thing that goes against your morals, you know, or something that you're not. I think a lot of too many people in the music industry say yes to things that they're not excited about.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

And they think they they're just supposed to say yes. Otherwise, if they say no, they could be either canceled or Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Or or they like say yes to I mean, I used to do it. I used to say yes to artists that I didn't want to work with or stuff because I needed the money. And they paid a few hundred bucks for a beat. And but over time it's like I didn't like working with them, they weren't good people, they weren't like they didn't treat me well. A lot of people that there's a lot of egos in the music industry that it's like it's their way or the highway, yeah, and it's not fun.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

No. I've I've been in the entertainment industry, and there's a lot of not fun people to work with for sure. Um, have you ever so this is a little different? Have you ever made like a song or something for somebody and once they actually finished it and put it out, you were like completely unhappy about it. I'm not asking you to say the song because obviously that'll get you in some legal issues, but uh was there ever like a time when you know you really had an interest in this beat or whatnot, and then somebody put it out and you're like, I can't believe they did that.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Yeah, there's there's been beats. Most of the time it's I make a beat and I know it's a really special beat, and I have people in mind, I send it to them, and I either won't hear back or they'll be like, I just couldn't come up with anything. But I'm like, I know this beat is a hit.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Yeah. And then they're just not a hit.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Yeah, and then sometimes down the line, I end up just selling it to someone for money, and I regret that because I'm like, that beat could have been the hit. You know, there's there's like three or four beats that I'm sitting on right now that I'm like, I need to get this to these guys, and I'm not sending them to anybody. Yeah, you gotta protect it. Yeah, I'm holding it back because I'm like, I got I got I got one beat. There's a guy named Skrilla that I really want to work with. He did he did that uh song, the 6'7 that like blew up the meme. Yeah. And uh I have a beat that I'm like specifically like I really want to get to him, but it's like I'm not sending it to anyone else until I get in an opportunity like that.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

You gotta secure that opportunity first. That's really cool. Uh tell us about a time that you almost quit and uh what made you keep going?

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Oh man, I've never I've never honestly felt like quitting music. Honestly, I was I was talking with someone before about it because there was some rapper that we were talking about that he was he quit music. I don't remember who it was, but it was it was someone from the Christian hip hop days that we knew that was never never quite blew up, and then he was talking about that he was retiring and all that. And I was like, I've never felt that. I've never since I was in middle school, I was like, music's what I want to do since middle school. I was writing, I was writing songs in like 2009-2010 to Chris Brown instrumentals. Oh wow. On look at Look At Me Now was the first song I ever remixed in like 2009, 2010.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

And we're gonna hear it next. I dude.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

I found it recently on a hard drive. No, I went and looked and I found a bunch of the songs I had made like twenty two 2009, 2010. They're horrible. But I don't know, I was I was rapping about rapping. That was that was the topic. Uh the underground rap was about how you're the best rapper.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Oh my gosh, so prideful.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

I'm gonna kill rappers.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

I'm the best one alive. No, that's cool though, because you can it's like a time capsule, I think. You can go back and look at that and then actually see what you've grown from and things that you know you've done then that you might still do now that you're like, oh, I need to change that.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

I've done that since then, or or I can't believe I I used to do that, or you know, part of the reason I looked was there's a there's a rapper that I work with very often named PFV. PFV. And uh I went and looked because I had done a song with him like way back in the day when I was in like high school. I paid him it was like $40 at the time for a feature, and uh I ended up shelving the song and then like deleting it off YouTube and like I had a whole mixtape that I in like high school I had spent like 2,000 bucks on, like getting features from people, getting beats, getting all this stuff, and then I ended up deleting it later because it was horrible, and I was trying to find the songs because I was like, I want to have these songs somewhere so that I can listen for nostalgia's sake, yeah. But I found the song with him, and then I was going through all this other stuff. But uh to go back to it, uh I've never in my life been like I I want to quit or I that I could quit. Because it was like I just love doing it so much. The difference is I've had a lot of times where I've felt like I need to pivot. Cause it's like I like there was there was a lot of times where I was working with a lot like a lot of Christian rappers, and I started dealing with people that were frustrating or stuff like that, and then I was like, I need a pivot. I need to go, I need to start doing lo-fi because I then I don't have to rely on frustrating people. Yeah. Or I you gotta switch it up. Even even when I was working Christian hip-hop from the beginning, I was like, I can't be pigeonholed as the Christian like I was working with people who even the guys that were like uh the most Christian hip-hop, Christian hip-hop people. Okay, KJ52, but then also like I did a lot of stuff with Brian T and Kingdom Music. Okay, and they're like the most they had the most like diehard Christian fans that would come on my page and be like, hey bro, I don't even know if you're about this gospel life or something like that. But I'm like, I always I always made sure that I'm on I'm 100% with the guys behind the scenes. Like I I was in person with Brian T being like, I am a Christian, you know? I but I'm also like I've I've always been weird because it's like I don't feel I I never felt not condemned, but like I never felt like guilty about working with people who aren't Christians. I don't think you should because Jesus hung out with everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Yeah. And so I don't see that's me is I don't like the type where you have to isolate yourself to a certain crowd or a certain audience. I like to talk to all people, all walks of life, white, black, brown, Puerto Rican. I like to talk, I just like the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

I like the white, black, brown Puerto Rican. I mean, what is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

Yeah, it was just what came out of my mouth. Sorry. But yeah, I just I just like the conversation. I mean, even like going to say a church, I don't want to go to a church that's uh all white church and all black church. I want to go to a church that, you know, when you go there, it's similar to you know, walking into Walmart. You see all walks of life, and that's where you know, that's our community, and that's what I want my church to be. I don't want it to be like it's no longer a church, it's more like a social club where you have to fit all these boxes to fit in. And if you don't, then we're gonna ghost you and act like you don't exist. And you know, I don't like all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:22

That's one thing that's always bugged me about the Christian music scene in general, is it's very like the artists the artists complain a lot about that the fans put them on this pedestal. Yeah. But the artists also put themselves on that pedestal. They they walked up their their I went to a lot of Christian music concerts and I was there when the artist was like turning it into a whole revival and then being like, I used to be like this and blah blah blah blah blah. And it's like, well, when you're doing that, you're also putting yourself in this kind of hierarchy of like I am the example. Yeah, I am if you're if you're trying to say you're the example, you're gonna be held to that example.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

Where for me, I'm like, if anyone asks me, or I'll post about it, I'm like, I am a Christian, I am, I do have a relationship with God, but it's like I'm also not shoving it down your throat all the time. No, and from the get-go, I was working with juggalos, and I was working with Dizzy Wright and Swizz and like the funk volume guys, I was working with people who weren't Christians, so it was like and I did I didn't like care about defending myself to anybody or anything. I was like, I know my relationship with God, and I know that's good, and I felt like I was living in my purpose, so I was like, I don't care about some random guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:14

No, and you shouldn't. You should be living for God, not man anyway. So I mean it's and I think like I said, I mean, uh with Jesus, he he was around everybody. Does that mean that you know he did everything that everybody was doing when he was around them? I mean, he hung he hung around hookers. Does that mean Jesus acted like a hooker? No, he still maintained himself, he still was himself.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

He didn't have a a big purple uh jacket on and a cane.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:42

A big purple uh jacket, yeah, fluffy, fluffy coat. No, um, you know, he he maintained himself and he he didn't just you know specifically pick who he wants to hang out with, and that's what I think we should do is we shouldn't be like, oh, they're not Christian, so we shouldn't be around. That's not the image that I think we're supposed to be representing, yeah, being Christians. And me growing up in the 80s and 90s and stuff like that, I've I've seen certain things where you would see ministers or preachers or whatnot like shoving the Bible down somebody's throat, you gotta believe. And it's like nowhere did we see a representation of that in the Bible by Jesus. He got mad one time, and that's because we were using the church for something that we weren't supposed to be using it for. Yeah. And that was the only time he, you know, exercised his anger, otherwise, he was in peace.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:35

Even the whole Michael Tate thing. It's like it's like that's but it's like you were you were marketing yourself as my God's not dead, he should laugh. And it's you then every concert were doing a revival, and you were doing alleged things, you were doing stuff behind the scenes, and that came out, and you weren't the Person you were on the screen.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

No. And then and then who does that hurt more? Does that hurt Michael Tate as a person? Yeah. Or does that hurt God? And the following for Christianity?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

Or does it hit all of Christian music as a whole? Yeah. Because everybody now looks at the other bands and goes, they're just like them. I've I saw I saw those bands. I saw bands that were uh Christian who I would go uh on the tour bus and they got bottles of vodka and they're getting blacked out all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:38

I saw that Christians think it's okay to do that. But yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

I went on tour, I went on tour with another country band who I won't say because they told me this specifically. They it was they were performing at a this was like 2014-2015. So that tells you how the political landscape was, and they were a country band. Oh boy. So they were performing at a NASCAR rally with a bunch of other country bands and stuff, and on the stage they're talking about like all this stuff uh about politics and it's all Trump, Trump, Trump, all this stuff. Because it's 2014, yeah. And uh, I get it. So then we get on the tour bus, and I'm I've always been someone that's independently more liberal. And uh so I get on the tour bus and I'm like, do you guys like like is that like your beliefs? And they're like, nah, we just say what we gotta say to get the crowd hyped up. Wow, like, for real? I was like, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:49

That's even more messed up.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

Yeah, I was like, that's crazy, bro. I can't imagine, but it's that's the thing, is there would be nothing that could come out with me that would be different from the character I've portrayed. You know, it's never I'm a family man, I'm uh I spend time with my wife and kid, and I play video games. I've you are a bit of crazy guy, but it's like I've never done something crazy. So it's like I don't get the but I've seen people that market themselves as Christian or market themselves as other stuff, or even like in the underground rap scene, there's artists that I'm underground, I'm depict I'm independent, I'm all this, and then they get signed to a record label, and then their fans go, You're not independent, you just signed uh the biggest record label in the world. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:51

You can't be independent and signed.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:53

You can't be independent and be working with postmalone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

So what uh inspires you the most to continue to create?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:04

I think I don't think there's anything specific. It's just it's just what happens naturally. Uh I just I get in the studio and I just do what I'm feeling. Uh whether it's something I end up releasing or not releasing or working with whoever. Um but I don't think there's really much to it besides it's just what I was created to do. You know, I was created to create.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

It's recalling.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

It it is literally, and it's like I don't go to therapy.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

I don't You got Jesus. Why do you need therapy?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Yeah, I don't I don't go to therapy, I don't do like uh a lot of stuff like that. I it's music is what makes me feel myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:00

It keeps your fire burning.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

And it keeps and I make something and then I get really excited about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:09

That's part of the fun about social media, is I can make something and then just post it. And share it with everybody. An hour later.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

And share it with everybody. Where, you know, doing certain private jobs, like no discs, but like say if I worked at Burger King, there's not much I can do. Like if I was flipping the burger, I can't really share that with everybody. Yeah, I can buy some metaglasses and post a couple of things about me, but that's not the same as like, you know, I was in the studio for four hours. I put my heart and soul into this, and then you put it out there, and then you're also judged because that puts you in a whole new light. There's gonna be some people that's gonna say some awful things that you can't control. And then there's gonna be the honest people that's gonna tell you, hey, that was great, or you know, you could do this better, or you know, that reminded me of such and such.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

And also, also, like that's part of the frustrating thing about working with labels and other artists is they don't want you to just get excited and show it to people. They don't want you to post about it, they don't want because it's like they gotta keep it on down low until they release it. We gotta keep it on the download because the label would be mad if it leaked somehow that we're doing this. And it's like, well, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

Yeah. So if you could work with one artist, dead or alive, who would it be and why?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:29

Uh Tech Nine is definitely one of the top ones. The other one's crazy to say, given everything for my life, but Toby Mack. Toby Mack. That's the dude. Dude, that would be pretty cool. Just because it, dude, you want to hear a Toby story?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:50

You got one? Yeah. I will Poetics bring the Toby story.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:54

So I have been listening to Toby Mack since I was friggin' like five. My parents were playing DC Talk. DC Talk! They were playing uh Intermission, uh, Jesus Freak, uh Consume Me.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:11

Like all of the songs moving through me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:14

Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:16

Any time, any place, you invade my space.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:20

Yeah, you consume a music video is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:23

Dude, I actually went to that I went to that whole supernatural concert.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:27

Oh, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:28

Yeah, it was at the uh the Phoenix Suns arena, whatever they call it now. Oh man. Market booking, whatever it's called.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

I can't imagine. That was a good concert. So I had growing up like eight times gone to Toby concerts. I was waiting by the merch table, trying to meet them or something my whole life. I went in uh I think it was very end of high school or beginning of college, I don't remember. I went on the cruise with my family.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:59

No way.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

Yeah, we went on the DC talk reunion cruise. They can't run away too far on the cruise. I was like, this is gonna be my chance to finally meet these guys while we're there. This is 100% true. You you do not need to cut this out because things have came out. I'll keep it. My brother, the last night goes. You know the craziest thing is I was at the bar last night. Because they had a bar on the thing, and he was like, Michael Tate was there drinking with people. And I was like, Whoa, what? And then my mom didn't believe him, and she she just thought it was probably just a guy that kind of looked like him.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:38

This all makes sense now.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:40

But she allegedly, he was like, Yeah, he was he was at the bar, everyone was like excited to see him, and he was just kind of drinking a little drinking some beers and hanging out with everybody. And then the same cruise, my dad, was like, I met I met Michael Tate last night, and uh he then he shows a picture and it was Kevin Max. He didn't even know the members. Big difference. Big difference. Never didn't meet any of them the whole time. Me personally, the whole cruise, and I was like actively trying. And then years later, uh, I get invited by Aaron Cole to go to his release party. Okay, uh, Aaron Cole's album release party. And I'm not even like thinking about it. And I'm sitting there with my, she's at the time my fiance, now my wife.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:28

Awesome. Uh she made it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:31

It dude, it's crazy. She used to work for uh Capital. No. She was an accountant there. Uh because we went to the same college, she got the opportunity to be an accountant.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

So you guys are both kind of in music?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:44

Yeah. Well, she's she's moved on since then after we had a kid and all that. But so I'm at the release party for Aaron Cole and I'm not thinking about it. And then someone walks up in a hoodie, sweatpants. Hey, I'm Toby. And I go, Oh, what's up? And it's Toby Mack. And then I was like, I didn't say anything about it. I was just like, hey man, good to meet you. And then he keeps walking, he's shaking everyone's hand. But then I was like, dude, I was trying to meet that guy for like my entire life. And then I didn't even try, and it happened. Like I was trying, and it was a missed opportunity. But I was like, it was it was still it was still cool because it was like it finally happened. I finally I finally shook Toby Mack's hand. It was crazy. That's really cool. But that's someone who early on his first DC Talk and then his first few albums were like, if it wasn't for Toby, DC Tech, DC Talk wouldn't have taken off. Oh yeah. He was the rap version behind it, the hip hop pusher, and and also people people disrespect him, but he's he's yeah, he was he was pushing stuff that was like fire. Oh Momentum, uh Diver City are two albums that are stacked.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:06

Some of his early Christian uh music, churches still won't touch. Like it's it's so hardcore that they don't they don't want to be associated.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:15

You go even if you go back to like the Momentum album and you listen to like Extreme Days, I'm Yours, they're they're literally like hard rock songs, yeah. And with rapping and with DJ cuts, and then the Diver City album was the same. Like you listen to like catch a fire, whoops and day, say, call me crazy. He had like reggae, he had T-Bone on a song. Dang. Who was like rapping his butt off?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:46

No way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:47

It was crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:48

I I I didn't know about that one. So um, so while we're here uh it talking about this, what do you think about Forrest Frank?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

I actually have only heard like two songs. Only two songs of his? I don't listen to because in general, I don't listen to a lot of pop music. Like if you think it's pop? I yeah, I think most of it's pop from what the stuff I've heard, which has just been Instagram reels for the most part. I heard one song I think he did with uh It's pop-ish, I could say, yeah. There was someone he did a it was a big artist that he did a song with.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:28

He's done a few. Like he's worked with Kane, he's worked with um what's her name? Oh man, I forgot her name.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:35

But yeah, he It was someone who was like mainstream. Did he do a song with Connor Connor Price or whatever?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

Connor, he's done songs with Connor.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

Yeah, that might have been the one I heard. Because I I know him.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:47

And then Jake, he's done a lot of songs with Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:49

Jake's Jake also, Jake follows me on Instagram. No way, it's so random.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

He's a very interesting guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:55

Yeah, he because he literally, like while he was blowing up, uh, I never got a notification. So he followed me before he was famous.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:05

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:06

But that's cool. And then I was talking with uh I think it was Marty from Social Club because he followed him too. And I was like, dude, what's up with that? And then he was like, Yeah, he was like, it turns out he was like a Christian hip hop fan from like way back in the day. And he just like a bunch of random people from Christian hip-hop he had followed for years, and then he just blew up.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:31

Tori Kelly is who I was thinking.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:33

Oh, yeah. I like Tori Kelly. He's done songs with two songs.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:36

So when you said somebody really big, I was like, Well, she's really big because she was also on like the Disney Club or something way back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:43

She I think she was American Idol, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:46

Yeah. So was Danny Gokie.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:48

There was someone else recently, uh the guy Benson Boone. He's been blowing up, and my Benson. I randomly saw something about him, and then it was like American Idol winner. And I was like, he was an American Idol winner.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

That show's been around.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:05

But uh yeah, pop music in general. Like, I have not heard a single Sabrina Carpenter song. I haven't heard a single uh like most of those artists. Benson Boone. I don't know a single song of his. I've never heard one. Wow. I know the one song by Sam Smith that's the unholy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just because of the show Secret Life of Mormon Wives.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:34

That's funny. If someone's listening right now and wants to follow your path, what's the first step they should be taking?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:43

Uh watch a lot of YouTube tutorials. YouTube Academy? Yeah. I I watch a lot of to this day, I still watch a lot of uh YouTube videos on how to mix like this, how to make your vocals sound like this, how to do that. Uh so you're still a student, you're still learning. Yeah. That's cool. I would I would say from the get-go, uh find someone who can kind of mentor you. For me, that was Canon and KJ. Was they were people that I could call when I was having a really hard time or needed advice on how to handle frustrating people or stuff like that. I would call KJ or I'd call Canon and ask for advice. Um, and also uh they can give you someone who's been in the industry 15, 20 years can give you advice on don't sign this.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

Don't sign that contract.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:47

Learn from others' mistakes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:49

I there, I there's contracts that I wish I didn't sign. I'll I'll tell you some stuff off uh off one. There's stuff that I wish I didn't do that people told me, like, you sure you want to do this? You're like, yeah, yeah, it's a big bag. Ouch. I'm sorry. Oh, it's I mean, it's the industry. You get used to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:12

At least it wasn't, it doesn't sound like it was your soul or anything. So you're so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:17

Stuff I I always made sure anytime I was signing a contract with something that there was a way to get out.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:25

But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:27

What's an opinion you have about the music industry that some people wouldn't understand or might even tick them off?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:35

Uh I think we were talking about this earlier, but I think that mixing is all subjective. Explain. I feel like also mixing is a creative thing, and a lot of people that's not the case. A lot of people, it's the vocals have to be mixed to this part. Because I was in college where they were telling me like mastering, you have to master it at this level. It has to be a little bit peaking red. It has the vocals have to be here, drums have to be here, melody has to be tucked down here with a low pass high pass filter cutting out the low end and all this, and you have to have on the vocals this amount of reverb, this amount of delay. Yeah. And I used to think that was the case, but it's like then I watched uh I it was re-affirmed to me when I watched a video of uh oh, what's his name? He used to mix like everything for Kanye. Oh Travis Scott, and he still works at Travis Scott all the time. He doesn't work for Kanye anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:55

I know who you're talking about, but I can't I couldn't refer you to the name.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:59

I can't remember his name. Oh well. But it was a video where he was literally saying, well, he was mixing Travis Scott's album. He was like, Yeah, we're mixing it to where it's peaking on purpose. So they're trying to create the distortion or yeah, they're like creating distortion with the master. Yeah. It was like, I was like, oh, you don't have to have it mixed to where it's mastering right at the zero. He was like, we mix it to where it's uh plus three or whatever. And it's like then they can bring it back down and yeah, and it's like, oh, you can you can just do that. And then it kind of like opened up the gates of like, dude, I can mix everything different. I can I don't have to have three stacked vocals. I can do one vocal and change the pitch of it, and then do something else creative and throw a weird delay in and all kinds of different stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:59

And uh it's like a recipe. You're the cook, you can do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

Yeah, and a lot of people aren't like that in the music industry. I also think a lot of music music that I hear now is mixed horribly. Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:11

I could I could hear that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:12

I could see that specifically in rap, there's there's artists that are multi-platinum.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:18

It doesn't sound like it used to be horrible.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:21

I also can I also can say this because it's not technically like dogging on them, but like if you listen to like Rod Wave or like Lil Baby or even some like Gunna Young Thug, like the song will not be mixed well. No, it will be it will be recorded over an MP3, and that will be the version that they release. I've I've heard it, like it's recorded over a poor MP3, and but it's it goes multi-platinum, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:59

What's a harsh truth that nobody tells new producers?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:06

Uh I'd say kind of what we were talking earlier, like, unless you're an established brand, you don't deserve money. You don't deserve people to work with you just because you're good. That's another thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:23

Like, just because you are a very good producer or a very good engineer doesn't mean an artist should work with you over someone else. Because they a lot of the time, like there's there's a lot of artists that blow up, especially if you're looking in like the if you're looking in like street rap, yeah, like they're working with producers who were their friends before they blew up, and they stay with those guys because they're their friends. And you might be a better producer by than them, but that doesn't mean they need to work with you, yeah, or that they even should work with you because they like working with that guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:06

So who cares?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:08

It's networking.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:09

I know a lot of guys that are amazingly talented producers, but it's like they don't build with anybody. Like I would say if you're a new producer, find somebody who hasn't blown up and build them from the ground up.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:27

Okay. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:28

Make splits with them, and you both put money into marketing.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:33

That's awesome. So if you've got so uh so you got something new out right now? You want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:41

Uh I mean, I'm pretty much releasing a new song every week.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:45

What's that new song that you sent me on Spotify? Flood?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:49

Uh Flood's the new one that released this last week. Um, it's inspired by Super Mario Sunshine, the video game. I thought I heard some of that in there. But it's like I Sunshine. I'm releasing something every week. I'm having fun with it. Uh if you follow me on Instagram, you see I am constantly posting different songs and having a good time. And I I really like my song Air Riders that came out like two, three weeks ago. Okay. It's a very experimental, like uh cloud rap beat where it's like it's cool because it's like a I don't know how much you know about like producers and stuff, but it's got like a clams casino young lean type sound with the melodies, but then the drums are like crazy distorted 808s and stuff. So it's really fun, and I've been experimenting with like making songs at weird BPMs. Yeah, it's like instead of making the beat. I would norm a normal speed, a normal song that I would make for Derek or Canon or something would be like 160 BPM, 165, 170, somewhere around there. So it has like, but I've been experimenting with like, what if I make this beat at 105 BPM? Oh, what? And then I start structuring the and then that that's my rule for that beat is like this beat will be 105 BPM. And then how am I gonna make it work? How am I gonna fill that space? How am I gonna structure it? Because I'm not used to that structure. So it's like, and then the next beat will be like, what if I just bump it up to 200 and we'll just see what happens?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:44

Work around it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:45

Yeah. Figure, find a way to figure out how we can structure the song and the beat and make it different.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:52

So you heard about the um how there's like some certain frequencies that used to be in music that used to heal people that apparently they've been taking it out and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:04

I don't believe all that. Um, because you can still put it back. I also used to not believe a lot of conspiracies that are turning out to true.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:11

Yeah, so I I was thinking that. I was like, couldn't you just like nowadays just put those frequencies back in? I mean, why wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:18

There's there's people that do it. I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:21

You don't play with your frequencies?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:22

Uh not specifically frequencies. Uh I experiment a lot with sounds and textures though. Okay. Like I love layers. I might lace a little video game soundtrack that you can and change it a lot to where you can't even recognize it because I pitched it down a whole octave and reversed it and slowed the BPM. Like there's there's one song that I was I've been working on that it's literally like I sampled a game from that I won't say because I don't want them to eventually figure it out. Yeah. But it was I loved the string section in it, so I reversed it, pitched it down in an octave, and slowed it down like five times. No. Where it's literally like this. And it's like, no, but it's a relatively big companies song.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:24

They'll find out real quick. Wow. So uh I got uh signature question. We ask everybody the signature question, and it's uh if you got one of the first questions with God, what would you ask him?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:41

Uh I don't I don't quite know. I'd probably just start berating him about like random stuff. Berating him? I've I've always wondered this is this is very specific to like Christianity in general, but I've always wondered like, is everything intentional or did the Catholic Church just add like a bunch of stuff? Because I did like a deep dive on uh I've I've always been someone that like loves conspiracy theories and stuff, and I watched a whole video about uh the Catholic Church and uh King James and how like they just kind of like like the the Bible, the early Hebrew they would refer to hell, but it was like it was just separation from God. Yeah, I heard and then they're like well now hell is like a big scary place with fire and and we're gonna make a bunch of paintings about it. And then it's like how much of that is? Like I've always wondered, like did you ever look back? Like if I would look at God and be like, did you let them like kind of add some stuff or did they do that on their own?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:08

Yeah, is this real or was this you know man's creativeness?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:13

And also, uh I've always been curious. Revelations. Is it just because they're like this guy, John, he was because it was John, right? Yeah, John who wrote John was on an island where he was banished, and he was like 102 or something like that. And he wrote these scripts, and I'm like, I don't know if I would trust that guy's scripts. That's I don't know, it's it's heresy, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:49

No, but I heard some interesting things about the King James himself. Yeah, like that actually wrote the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:58

Like he had his mother killed, I heard. People believe he was secretly homosexual.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:02

Yeah, and I heard that he actually had his own mother killed.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:05

Oh, that's crazy. Yeah, I mean, I'd have to be they were crazy back then. Kings.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:11

But hey, I I believe what I believe.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:14

I feel that.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:16

Uh so this is your guest time poetics. Take uh about 30 seconds-ish to plug whatever you want. Your projects, links, fam, any shout-outs, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:27

Yeah, uh, follow me on Instagram, follow me on YouTube. Uh I am, if you go on my Instagram, you'll see a link to my YouTube. But I'm focusing hard on recently uh doing let's plays of video games and throwing them up there, uh, working on a lot of different stuff. Uh I'm working with my friends, uh, Cold AF and Big Zach. We've they're on most of my songs and Skills syrup. And we've just been focusing on building like a community of artists who are easy to work with and are friend, friendly people and uh all investing in time in each other, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:10

And yeah, appreciate you having me, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:13

So uh your your socials, how do people find you? And your music, is it so is your music actually everywhere? Is it only on Spotify? Where can we find it?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:22

It's everywhere. Uh you just search Poetics and you'll find it on Spotify, Apple Music, all that stuff. Uh on social media, I'm prod by poetics. Except on TikTok, I'm produced by Poetics.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:38

So similar.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:39

But yeah. So I had it, I have an account called Prod by Poetics that became like a video game account over time. And then I created another account that was produced by Poetics that was more focused on like my music, and then that one's kind of became my main page on TikTok.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:59

That's awesome. Um, so you want to spell it out for them so they can find it?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:03

Uh P-R-O-D B-Y-P-O-E-T-I-C-S. And then I am not gonna try to say produced by Poetics, but yeah, it's produced by you guys can connect the dots. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:21

Thanks for being here. Well, that's a wrap on episode 34. Sound business. Huge thanks to Poetics for coming through. Next week on episode 35 is the season two finale. Stay locked in. The UFR fan will be here, and it'll be unexpected as usual. I can't wait. If you uh have been really enjoying the show, take about 10 seconds and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you are enjoying us. A lot of listeners have already done so, and it really helps people discover Unfit for Radio. We appreciate more than you know. Unfit for Radio is an independent self-funded podcast powered by us and people like you, our listeners. Visit unfitforradio.buzzsprout.com to donate every contribution. Helps the radio community grow stronger together. We truly appreciate the support. And maybe it'll provide me some reading lessons. You can always send in your questions or suggestions. And if you're interested in being a guest, email us at unfitforradio show at gmail.com or send us a text at 602-767-3390. And it might happen next season in August 2026. The credits for this episode belong to executive producer Jake Urbs. Contributors Poetics recorded by Jakerz. Mastered NUFR music by Ronald L. Jones on Instagram at Ronnie CashLife. Poetics, it wasn't so bad, was it? Would you consider coming back and hanging out again in the future?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:57

Yeah, for sure. Especially you live like literally like eight minutes away.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:02

I can't believe we're neighbors. Like, after all this time, I've seen your music everywhere and I I've been listening to my neighbor.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:11

Gotta love Phoenix.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:12

That is awesome. Well, remember if you can't find the good, then be the good. Until next time, peace.

unknown 1:37:20

Boom.