“The Exception”

EP.43: “THE EXCEPTION” (FEAT. CHRISTINE)

What if being late one morning changed the rest of your life?

On Episode 43 of Unfit For Radio with JAYKERS, we’re doing something a little different. For this conversation, we’re setting the jokes aside as longtime UFR guest CHRISTINE shares a deeply personal story about September 11, 2001, and the unexpected chain of events that kept her from being at the World Trade Center that morning.

Twenty-five years ago, CHRISTINE was in New York for a corporate leadership summit and was scheduled to be at the World Trade Center. But when her alarm clock failed to go off, she woke up late and never made it there.

What happened next changed her life forever.

CHRISTINE takes us back to that morning and shares what it was like experiencing the chaos from just blocks away, feeling the impact of the attacks, being evacuated from her hotel, losing communication with her family, and wondering whether she would ever make it home to her husband and four-year-old son in Phoenix.

She opens up about the years that followed, including survivor’s guilt, counseling, therapy, faith, unanswered questions, and learning to live with the reality that, no matter how much we plan, some things are simply beyond our control.

CHRISTINE also shares another deeply personal story she has never talked about before: surviving gun violence while in college. Her roommate was shot, CHRISTINE was spared, and the gunman ultimately took his own life.

This is more than a conversation about 9/11. It’s a story about life, timing, family, trauma, faith, purpose, perspective, and the seemingly small moments that can change everything.

And because this is still Unfit For Radio, we couldn’t let CHRISTINE leave without bringing a little UFR personality back into the room. RAY closes out the conversation with two original limericks written especially for CHRISTINE.

This is CHRISTINE’S story: She is “The Exception.”

IN THIS EPISODE:

• CHRISTINE’S firsthand experience surrounding September 11, 2001

• How a broken alarm clock changed the course of her life

• Being just blocks away from the World Trade Center during the attacks

• The fear and uncertainty of not knowing if she would make it home to her family

• Survivor’s guilt, counseling, therapy, and the years of processing what happened

• Faith, purpose, and learning to let go of what we cannot control

• CHRISTINE shares a story she has never talked about before about surviving gun violence in college

• The importance of asking for help and using available resources

• Looking back 25 years later and wondering what we’ve learned from the past

• RAY’S original limericks for CHRISTINE, bringing a little UFR humor back to the conversation

THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING UFR

Thanks to you, Unfit For Radio with JAYKERS continues to reach listeners around the world, now in 50+ countries, 180+ U.S. cities, and 6 continents.

If you enjoyed this episode, follow, rate, and review Unfit For Radio on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. Every follow, rating, and review helps new listeners discover the show and helps us continue doing what we do. THANK YOU

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Keywords: Unfit For Radio, JAYKERS, UFR Podcast, independent podcast, interview podcast, real conversations, personal stories, 9/11 story, September 11 2001, World Trade Center, shooting survivor, survivor story, survivor’s guilt, trauma recovery, mental health, faith and healing, family, purpose, life-changing stories, inspirational stories, UFRPODCAST.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

How far away were you when it felt like the whole world stopped?

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Well, I was at a hotel. Getting ready to go to work. I'd flown into New York the day before. I'm in my mid-20s, so it's my first big girl job. And our corporate office was in New York City. So I'd been invited to a leadership summit in the Towers. And so I was very excited. It's the first time I had gotten to go to our corporate office. Um, those of you that work in corporate America, if you are stretched out across multiple locations in multiple states, going to the corporate headquarters is always a big deal. So it's the first time to do that. And so that's the day everything changed.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Wow. Welcome to Unfit for Radio with Jakers. I'm Jakers. It's been 25 years since the events of 9-11. And today's episode, we are going to talk about just that. It's going to be a little bit different from our other ones. This conversation, we are setting the jokes aside and taking a moment to hear a story about timing, life, and a moment in history that changed millions of people forever.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

I'm Ray. And as always, we're here to listen, learn, and have a real conversation. Today we have an incredible guest and an incredible story. This is one of those conversations where you don't just hear someone's experience. You really think about your own life and the moments that shape us.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

So let's go.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Today on Unfit for Radio, we're talking about a day none of us will ever forget. September 11th, 2001. A moment in history that changed America forever, but also changed millions of individual lives in ways most people may never fully understand. Joining us today is a familiar face here at UFR, a good friend of the show, who has been with us many times before. She's the kind of person who is always on time, always prepared, and never misses a moment. Until one morning, changed everything. On the day she was supposed to be at the World Trade Center, one unexpected exception changed the course of her life forever. Today she's sharing that story with us.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome back to Unfit for Radio, a good friend of the show. Christine, welcome back, and thank you so much for being here with us today.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Thanks, guys. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

We love Miss Christine around here at the UFR Studios. And if you've missed it, she's been here since episode six. And and before then, but uh officially since episode six. She came back in episode 38 that went viral. You can go check it out for yourself. And now she's here uh with us again for episode 43. So hopefully this is just one of many more of her appearances from Miss Christine. Miss Christine. You are uh you're someone who is famously, you know, always on time. You're never late. And, you know, I've I've known that firsthand, just being your friend. What what does it look like looking back and knowing that, you know, the one day where you weren't on schedule became the most significant days in in history for you?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Looking back, well, looking back at it now, of course, I'm grateful. Um for many years I had a lot of guilt.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Survivor's guilt?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yes, survivor's guilt.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Um did you actually seek therapy or anything?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Um that was required um by the organization that I worked for. Oh because we lost um employees in that as well that were in the towers. So friends, people you knew. Yeah. Wow. I lost friends in it. Um, and so that was required given my uh connection and close proximity to the actual events. So that was actually a required practice to to seek therapy, um, which was good because it gave me a chance to work through the um why me that started as a result of that day.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Wow. Can you take us back to that morning? What do you remember most about the beginning of that day?

SPEAKER_00 4:50

How frantic it was, because um, as Jake mentioned before, I'm a pretty timely person. Yeah. We'd we'd flown in, um, had dinner, uh, was back the hotel room on time, you know, things were scheduled. I had set the alarm clock because this was 25 years ago where you had the option of alarm clocks still in hotel rooms versus just using your smartphone. And I'd always use the alarm clock. So that was no different than any other work travel I'd ever done.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

You didn't like that wake-up call feature?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

No, I did not. Um, probably a good thing this time. Um, I don't like wake-up calls because I'm not a morning person. And when they pick up the phone, they're not even sure who they're talking to because I'm not um called the live case. Something, you know. Wow. Is that a human being there? No. So I just I always set the alarm clock in the room. It's not that big a deal. It looked to be functioning. I sat it, you know, turned it on, and should have been fine. Um, and then I think my eyes opened when the sunlight came through the blinds just right through a slit. And I awakened. I'd forgotten to turn uh use the timer on the TV in the room. So it was still on. And so the news was on. They were running the tricker tape at the bottom, and I saw the time, and I was late. So that morning began pretty frantic. I jumped up and threw off the covers and I'm running through the room and I'm like, great, my first time in New York as someone in this huge global organization that's now important enough, and you can't see my air quotes, um, to be in the I know I don't have cameras. You and Reg keep making fun of it. Um, it's to set the scene for your people. Um, so you know, I'm I'm in this space where it's the first time I'm gonna meet a lot of the major CEOs and VPs of things at our headquarters, and I'm late. Like this is the time to be late. Fabulous.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

So when you woke up and saw the news, nothing officially happened yet. No, nothing had happened.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah, nothing had happened yet. So it just it started like any other morning when you open your eyes and realize you have overslept.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Oh crap.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

And it's oh crap, and you're just running through the room trying to get things done. So nothing had happened yet.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

So started like anyone else would start their morning if you're late.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Walk us through what happened next. What was going through your mind as as the day started to unfold?

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Um, so I'm getting ready. I've sent a text message. Um, one other person from Arizona um had also uh taken the trip. I actually met him at the airport. He was a new employee. I won't drop names, um, because I haven't gotten authorization for that. Um, he was a new employee to the company and was flying as well. And so we met at the airport and then we were a couple of rows away, but um, so there was someone else there. I texted him to see where he was. Um, and he was already headed in that direction. He's like, I started to reach out to you, and I'm like, Yeah, I kind of wish you had, but there's no guarantee I'd heard that either. But um, I just let him know I was gonna be late, let them know when you because there was a reception first before the big meetings were set to start. So I was probably gonna miss that reception. So I said, just you know, I was sending him text, let them know I'm on my way, I'll make it by the meeting.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Meeting. So that's when you're attending to be there.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah. So I was just still running around trying to get ready. Um and then there was this sound. And I don't still to this day, if you have not experienced an earthquake, perhaps, or a building collapse or something crashing into a building, that type of sound, this particular hotel was right down the street. So it was enough to hear and feel the vibrations under your feet. Um that just made me lock.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

So this is when I'm guessing a plane hit. Yeah. This was this was Tower One.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

So you just froze right there at the moment, not knowing what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Not knowing what's going on, because I don't know what that sound is. I've never been around earthquakes or um anything exploding. So I wasn't sure what we felt. And then you hear alarms going off, car alarms, because the the vibrations shook cars that were parked. So you could hear alarms going off, um, people screaming. There's noise. Oh my God, oh my God. And I'm just kind of locked. And so I hear, then I start to hear doors opening around the hotel. You can hear door slamming. Um, as people are starting to move about, you know, what happened? What was that?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

A lot of motion.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

A lot of motion. Um, so I just kind of sat down for a minute. I'm like, let me wait this out. I'm in a hotel room in New York by myself. I don't know those people, I don't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

And this is the first time you're in New York?

SPEAKER_00 9:46

It wasn't the first time, but I'm it's the first time I've been by myself.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Okay. Um, I had family that used to live in New York, so I went as a child, but again, you're with your entire family. This is the first work trip I'm making to New York. It's completely different. Yes, completely different. I'm by myself. So I'm like, I'm not sure what happened. I'm just, I'm gonna sit still for a minute. I went to pick up the phone to call uh downstairs to the front desk to see if they were aware of anything. Um, and that's when it cut across the TV what had happened and where it was. And I just sat there thinking I this can't be real. This is this is not real. And I'm right down the street. I what what do I do? What do I do in this space?

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Um so are you still like in your mind thinking that you're gonna make it to the meeting or what are you thinking in that I the meeting is gone at this point.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

I'm just kind of sitting there. Part of my brain is you know, you gotta keep moving, but then part of my brain is because it took maybe a minute or two for looking at the screen, they're showing what's happening for my brain to make the connection. That's where you're supposed to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Like I didn't make that connection the first few minutes. I'm just like, oh my gosh, that's terrible. Yeah. And it's in New York. Wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I'm supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

I'm supposed to be over there.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

What do I do? So I get up slowly to look out the window because I think part of me just didn't believe what I saw on the screen. Yeah, you're in shock. Yeah, maybe that's not the building I think it is.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Maybe you're still sleeping.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

So I go and open the blinds and I peek around, and there's black smoke billowing and there's dust, and people are running and making it, you know, headed past the hotel. Um, I saw security with the hotel standing outside. Um, some managers were outside, and I'm like, no, this okay. Okay. So I sit down and I try to text this other person just to see if they're okay. If they were there yet, because again, I don't know where he is at this point. He's the only person that I've spoken to that I've had contact with in the last, you know, 12 to 14 hours. So I text him to get a response. Um I call a friend that works there to see if somehow she was late too and wasn't there. Um I sent a text to my husband. Um, he was the last person for me to send anything to. I because after that things started rolling. And then yeah, well, things started rolling, and then by the time um the second plane hit, we'd lost all communication in that area.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

So we couldn't get any information out. So luckily, my husband had information um that he could pass along because I was also not the only person from my office in danger. I was in New York. We also had two or three people at a conference in Washington near another site. And so our office, the administrative assistants in the office I worked in, were panicking. They were calling three or four different families, checking on employees because there were three or four of us. I mean, what are the odds in an office of 80 people that five or six people would be at two places that were hit by this?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah. And they're different places. And they're different places. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah, but a conference and what I was doing put five or six of us in spots where this was happening. And so they were panicking because they couldn't get a hold of me either. Um, and luckily it occurred to my husband at some point to contact them because I couldn't tell him to.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Because I couldn't I couldn't even talk to my family. He had to tell my family. He got stuck with all of that because I couldn't I couldn't get a hold of anyone.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

At least it was good news that he was able to share.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yes. Yes. That at that point I was still okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah. Because at that point we still didn't know where to do it.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

We still didn't know what was going on, and it was only, you know, the first tower at that point. So we didn't know what else was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

So and I remember um watching it on TV, you know. In Phoenix, you know, thousands of miles away. And when I first saw that, I thought, oh, that was an accident. I that was my first thought. Well, that was an accident. Somebody did something by mistake or whatever. I didn't expect it to be. I I I agree.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

We just thought something happened to the pilot. Maybe he had a heart attack or had a seizure or something went wrong, and he just flew into a building. And oh my gosh, how terrible. And then, like I said, it it was minutes later before I clicked that he had flown into the destin my destination. But yeah, at that moment, what actually happened was not even a thought. We all thought it was an accident. Yeah. That it was just some terrible accident that we're gonna hear that something was wrong with the pilot or something was wrong with the navigational system or something was wrong. We were all just waiting. Yes, we were waiting for the reasonable explanation for this tragedy. That's what I remember.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

No.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

No, no. Everyone's just and all they're telling you at this point, if you're anywhere in that radius, was to stay still. Don't go anywhere, don't go out, just stay still. Stay full. So I stayed in my room after I talked to the people at the front desk. A few people were hanging around the lobby. I'm like, I I'm gonna go back upstairs. So I went back up because I was on the second floor. So I went back up to, of course, now be glued, you know, to the news because I want to hear this explanation for what happened right down the street that I can see.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

So we're all just waiting for the explanation for this so that we can tackle the tragedy and just kind of move forward. So that's kind of where my head was. We we really didn't know what we were we were about to fit find out.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

So at what point did you realize this was something that would change history?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Um, the second tower.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

That was shortly after then?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah, it was shortly after that. That's when we realized something was not right. Um and maybe 45 minutes later came the evacuation order for that area.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

So you had to eventually leave your house.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yeah, we had to go. Um, and so that's when it got scary because now you're asking me to go out in this. When now everyone's really scared. We've had a second hit on a second tower, and now we're now that was your safe place, and they're taking you out of it. And like Ray mentioned earlier, now we know it's not an accident.

unknown 16:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

So who's doing it? So you don't want to go out in that because you don't know what else could happen. But their point was you being in that immediate area, we don't know what else is rigged or triggered to do anything. So we were too close uh to the site, and so they evacuated um the hotel. And now I can't tell anyone because by this point we've lost cell communication.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

So I can't tell my husband that I have moved anywhere. He's watching on TV. Think about him back in Phoenix, seeing this on TV, that a second tower's been hit, and he goes to reach out, and he can't get to me now. So now he has no idea what I'm doing. And doesn't know that I've left this hotel because I had to. Um because our company had a such a presence in New York as we had offices in both towers, um, they had set up a space in the safe zone for people to go to. So I had to pack my things back up quickly and get in a van because the hotel had shuttle service. And they shuttled us to um a building in the safe zone. Um only had one window per floor. I think they picked that on purpose. Um shuffled us in. So I got you know peripheral visions of things as we're going into the shuttle off the hotel. Because at this point, there's dust everywhere. People are running, people are screaming, people are panicking. I'm trying not to help. They're evacuating the hotel. People are starting to get scared. Because again, this is tower two. We now know this is not an accident, like something's happening. And I'm thinking, Am I ever gonna get home?

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Because at this point, I have a four-year-old.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Oh wow. Anthony was only four.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

So I'm starting to think I'm not gonna make it home to raise him.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

That's terrible. That's all and they got you moving around and you don't know where you're going.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah. They couldn't tell us. They were move, move, move, move. You know, security's upstairs, checking every room, helping you get downstairs. Like I'm surrounded by security to get out because they are checking every room to make sure every person's evacuated. Because at this point, everything within that radius has to be evacuated. That's that's their safety procedure. So that was my first run-in, even though I'd gone to New York several times. That was my first run in with NYPD. Um, because they were evacuating that hotel and, you know, in in emergency response mode. They're not warm and fuzzy. You know, we got to get you out of here because we don't know what's happening. We have got to evacuate this space so we can use it as a command center because it's close. Yeah. So they got to get us to safety. Our safety is their priority. They're not necessarily, you know, holding your hand and making you feel better about it.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

We got to get you out of here. And with the planes being somewhat disabled, you wouldn't know that if you ever were going to get on a plane in any reasonable amount of time to get anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Right. And who's and I hadn't even thought of that yet. Like that, that's a thought once you get somewhere and you get settled.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Um the no-fly zones involved. Yeah, I hadn't even But that hadn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

That hadn't happened yet, and it wasn't even a thought, you know, to us yet. It was all people were thinking was this is the second hit. This is not an accident. Something's happening, and we don't know what else is rigged. And so you're too close. Everything is too close to this area, which is now very dangerous to be in. We got to clear them so that we can figure out what else is happening.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

So when you look back on that morning now, what is like one of the most, you know, memorable details that you still remember the most?

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Um once we got to the space and they're setting up, you know, a center, a place for us to sit, you know, trying to find water, snacks, those kinds of things. Because like I said, everyone is starting to panic. At this point, you know, people are starting to cry. Because at least I had reached out to someone before cell communication went down. Some people never got the opportunity. And so they can't tell their families they're okay. They know their families are watching this, like my family in Georgia is watching this.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Um they know you're there too, huh?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

And they know I'm there.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I'll get into that later because it's a part of this story I don't think I've ever said out loud that was part of that as well. Um, but um, so they're starting to panic because they can't get to their families. They can't tell them if they're okay or not. And we don't really know what else is going on in the outside world, right? Like we're seeing some things on the news, but we don't know if it's just New York.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

You don't have social media back then, so you guys are isolated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

We're isolated. So we just know what's happening to us until the news picks it up and broadcasts. We didn't hear about the other stuff until later. So we think it's just us that this is happening to.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

You gotta wait for the message to wait for the message to Yeah, because we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

So We're kind of sitting there. You hear some sniffles. People are trying to. That's how we found out cell communication was down because someone wouldn't ask the question because we couldn't get through to anything. Um, and it's just kind of quiet for a few minutes because everyone's trying to process what's happening. Cause again, it's early in the morning. We're all getting up going about our daily lives an hour and a half ago, and now we've been had to throw our clothes and belongings and things and been shuttled off by um NYPD to some space, and we don't really know what's going on. Some of us have not talked to our families and can't get to them, so feeling even more isolated. And so it just got quiet for a few minutes. Everyone's just kind of sitting there. Wow. And a woman in the back started singing Amazing Grace.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

No way. Oh wow. That would have been so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Oh my.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Yeah. So those of us who could hold a note carried it too. Christine. I'm just saying. Some people, you know, chose not to, but that's the detail that sticks with me the most about the early parts of it. Um yeah, that and the the feeling of I'm not sure. I I don't know if I'm gonna be able to get home. So those are probably the two biggest.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

So about how long after that were you able to then reach Charles and let him know any updates?

SPEAKER_00 23:26

It was hours later. Hours. It was almost evening. Again, there was so much to figure out and put together. They were worrying about the command center, and then they got to, you know, those of us that were kind of stuck in limbo to figure out how to reach out. Um but it was hours.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Did anybody that traveled with you from work that went with you on that trip, did anybody make it back besides you?

SPEAKER_00 23:58

There were only two of us that came from Arizona and the other person did not make it. Because he was at the reception in Tower One.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

So everybody pretty much perished?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Like Um that was at that reception? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

From your company that was intended to go to that meeting?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

If they were at the reception, yes. They didn't make it. Wow. Arizona only lost one person uh in the towers, and it was the company I work with.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Do you still feel moments every single anniversary? Is it has it has it gotten easier? Is it still hard? What do you feel 25 years later?

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Um some years are better than others. Um I think now b because it's been twenty-five years to think that there are adults in the world who weren't alive when this happened.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

It's become something in a history book.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Some kids don't even believe that it actually happened, which amazes me. That amazes me too. I saw this with my own eyes. What do you mean you don't believe it? Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

I've had someone say it in front of me and then me have the conversation and show the four or five pictures from.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

And they're like, oh, yeah, it yeah, it's not made up. Um it some years are easier now because it's in a history book, which to me is surreal when I see it, and I've seen it in books and in documentation for kids, and it it always takes throws me because it it makes me think about when your grandparents or your parents witness things you didn't and you're listening to them tell stories, and I realize I'm in that space. So it's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Um But it's a historic event that not everybody has a connection to, like, no, and I you just never think you're gonna be that person.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

You've we've all sat and heard someone's stories um about being in a place in a space for something like that, and you just don't you don't think that's gonna be you until it is. Um so it's it's surreal in that space. The early years were much harder because the entire country was grieving for so long. Um, I didn't even talk about it for 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

For a while there, it felt like it really brought us together, like it felt absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

And I've said that the few times I've posted on social media that um there was not the level of division that you see now. And I think I posted something like that on social media last year, that in in the space we're in now, would you help someone covered in dust? Would you help someone down a flight of stairs in a building that's on fire if you thought they believed something different than you? Yeah. And that was the case back then, and I'm not sure that's the case now. No. And so now what I feel, especially last year, it's just tremendous sadness because we're not the country we were then. No. Um, the earlier years were much harder because the entire country it was harder but safe. Um, I felt like I could grieve and no one really know that I had any connection to it because we were all grieving.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Um, but it also kept me in silence about it for almost a decade. I didn't speak out in public about it um until it had been 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Wow. Well, thank you for sharing today for sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Um, how did that uh experience change the way you looked at your own life?

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Well, beyond the Survivors Guild, um, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I was saved.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Um did Jesus help with that? I'm just asking. From a real point of view, from you know, somebody who may not even be a Christian.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Yeah, no, I I spent a lot of time asking him why me to get back why not.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Um, so it took me some years to let that go. I felt, like I said, there were only two of us from Arizona in that space, and one was on time and one wasn't, and it the randomness of a broken alarm clock.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Will make you think about the small details in the world and how it for one thing for sure, if I'm late or a coincidence or something happens and I'm pushed back for something, I don't get as stressed out as I used to about that. I my husband can tell you I say it quite often. I'm like, you know what? Probably God keeping us from something we're not supposed to see or do.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

So if we're not supposed to be there yet, if that was the plan, yeah, that stayed with me. Um, because I spent so many years feeling guilty in trying to figure out the purpose and and and why, and sometimes even saying, looking at my life and saying, God, you saved me for this. Um, only for him to remind me that my purpose is not my creation, it's his. Amen. So, but yeah, I I definitely hold that now. If we're on time to be somewhere and some incident or something kind of steps in the way to block us for a few minutes, I just look at him and say, clearly we're not supposed to be there yet. Um and this is not this was also not the first time in my life that a random circumstance saved my life. It was the second.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Oh, really? Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Is that a whole nother episode?

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Or is that so my sophomore year in college? Um, there was a guy that had a crush on one of my roommates and she rejected his advances.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

So um they they were both nursing students. The rest of us were different um disciplines. So the nursing program started, their classes started later and ran later on campus, whereas the rest of us were on a more predictable time frame. So he would come over and they would study together, you know, for stuff. I wasn't a huge fan of him. There was something even for me that wasn't quite right. And those of you who know me know you can see it on my face, so he knew I wasn't a fan of his either. But um he came over one night unbeknownst to us, um, with a gun in his backpack.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

And he shot his he shot my roommate. He didn't end her life, but he shot her and uh unalived himself in our apartment. Um you were there? I was there. Oh wow. Because he didn't know that my class for the morning had been canceled because my professor was teaching at was uh speaking at a conference. He thought we were all gone. And we weren't. So this was the second time um that something like that just so happy that yeah, I so that's so yeah, the two times I've had therapy paid for, it was those two times. It was 9-11 and and this situation in college when I was 19.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

God has you around for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Well, after listening to the uh last episode with her and Reg, I can see why.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Because she's a minister of music and it she's blessing people and she's a minister in her life, even though she comes from the background like me, where women aren't really considered or supposed to be ministers or preachers or anything like that. And so I think though that she's you know, I think that Christine is a very good, um, maybe not pastor, you know, because you know, you're not supposed to necessarily be a pastor if you're a woman, uh depending on your beliefs. But Christine is a very good um leader um and minister, I think. Yeah, that's the word leader. She leads very well. I think she does minister, even if it may not be, you know, uh, you know, leading a flock and and you know, being a shepherd. I think she still has some great um some great uh like almost like teacher. No, what's there's another word from that. There's there's some experiences that she carries that she can share that not not everybody um not everybody has. I'm not even wording this in the way that I want to.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

It's interesting that you use the the word teacher. Um only because I've had guidance counselors tell me I should have been one. Um I just don't have the patience for it. Um, but like we talked about before on another podcast, I think everyone has the opportunity for ministry. Um, it's it's the small spaces and and faces. Um we've all been in huge mega churches. Yeah. And that's always overwhelming when you walk in the door. What keeps most people in them is the small groups. Yeah. If if they work. Yeah, if they work. Um if you have leaders and people in small groups who are actually doing life together, that makes the difference. And so I think we all have the capability for doing that. Um being in spaces with a few amount of people and doing life together. And I I believe that. So it's what I exercise. That's probably what you see. Um, I just I I believe in doing life together. And that's not just showing up on Sunday and giving someone a hello um and walking out that day and checking it off the box that you you spoke to them. It's reaching out. It's when they're on your mind to reach out.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Um don't ghost them.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Yeah. I started two or three years ago um, because it'll happen. You'll be doing something or talking to someone or doing something else, and someone's name will pop up in your head. And you'll be like, you know what, I wonder what such and such is doing. I don't just say that out loud anymore. I pick up my phone and I reach out. Too many times when I've done that, someone's been in a spot where they needed someone to reach out. That was a prompting I would have missed had I not followed it.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

So I've had in my life where I've had that thought on reaching out to somebody, and I'm uh I'm like, oh, I'll do it later. I'll do it later.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

But you forget.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

No, that that later comes and that person's no longer here.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I pick up the phone. When the minute I have the thought, I pick up the phone and just reach out and go, hey, you were just on my mind for whatever reason. Um, and in a lot of situations like that, they've had a hard day or something's happened. Um, and it provides an opportunity for them to share, for us to talk. Um, if it's something I've experienced, I can share my experience with them and they know they're not alone because that's the first line of the enemy is to isolate you and make you think that you're alone in it, that no one else will understand.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Wow, that's really good. I like that. After something like, you know, this happens, how do you move forward and process it? Like I I know 25 years later you still don't have the answer to that. You're still, you know, a work in progress, but what what does that look like for somebody who may be just starting the process?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Anyone who is a survivor or a victim of something tragic, especially like that, please get help. Please use every and any resource you have um to begin the healing process. I know some people have their thoughts about therapy or counseling. Um, there are Christian counselors and therapists if that is your belief system. Um, it's not an excuse anymore. Um that would be the first thing I would say. Utilize any and all resources. Uh, the organization that I worked for, um every office that had someone that was involved, they had counselors and therapists on site the next day. If you wanted to talk, there was someone in a room, you could go in there and sit down, tell them how you felt. If you weren't to schedule additional um appointments after that, you certainly could, but that was on you. But they wanted to have the resources available for you to do that. And a lot of situations now, you know, having counselors on site for children when things happen at schools is pretty common. But 25 years ago, that was not as common.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Um I remember like, sorry, didn't mean to cut you off. I remember like when the first uh Columbine shooting happened, that wasn't a thing. Like the the the counselors and everything didn't, it wasn't a normal thing that that when they were being sent in there. I remember it was like, why are we sending counselors there? And then like the conversations, you know, took place on well, because those kids just saw this. I mean, how are they gonna deal with that when they try to show up next week at school? It's the same building, and you know, the blood's been cleaned up.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Exactly. And understanding that as a gun violence victim, because it actually took me a long time to even identify myself as that, even though I absolutely am. Um, that wasn't a thing back then when I was 19 either. Um, they sent, you know, those of us that were directly affected to therapy, but they didn't really work with the rest of the kids that were impacted by it. Um, so to do that in 2001 was not something that you saw every day. But the company I worked for was very adamant in giving everyone a space for the next week as you started to process and try to move forward in this about how you felt about it. And again, because I was not the only person from our office that was somehow impacted. Um, like I said, we had a few people in Washington. They were fine. They got back, they drove cross country because no fly zone.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Um so I was gonna ask that. How did you get back? Did you eventually fly? Did you how many how long did you stay in New York before you were able to come back?

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Um it it was a week, nine days.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

A week after?

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yeah, nine days. And then we had to drive back.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Really?

SPEAKER_00 38:34

And then the other part of this story that I don't think I've ever said anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Did Charles come to drive with you or who drove?

SPEAKER_00 38:39

No, people who were stuck. We all just kind of like the group that was in Washington, they got together with four other people that were California and rented a car and drove. Yeah. So that's the kind of mess we did. And so the other part of this that I don't think I've ever shared anywhere because I don't know that it ever comes up. Um, my sister has an airline ticket from that day because she um has a best friend in New Mexico and she goes to see her first, and then she flies to see us in Arizona, and then she goes back to Georgia. Oh, wow. She has an airline ticket from that day because she was supposed to fly to Phoenix that day. She was gonna fly in, and then I was flying.

unknown 39:17

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

I was gonna fly back in a day or so. So she had an airline ticket to fly to us that day, and of course, she got grounded. So we drove home. I drove home with work colleagues, and then we took a day, and then we had to drive to New Mexico to get my sister. Oh my god because she had already been, oh, you know, seven day, seven days after the time she should have been with her best friend at her house.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

So she got to New Mexico, but she couldn't fly out. She couldn't fly to Phoenix.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Okay. Because that's it happened the day of she was supposed to go to the airport. She was flying to us that afternoon. Never happened. Um so she stayed an extra six days. They were fine, but she was like, I need to go. So me and Charles got in a car and drove to her and stayed there for a day or so with her and her best friend, and then drove her back for the rest of her trip. And by so by the time all that happened, she could fly back to Georgia. So it didn't even just impact me, it impacted my family. So, and that's another thing. They were worried about me in New York, but then my sister my sister was in New Mexico and no one stuck. She stuck.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah, it it stranded everybody. It was a no-flight zone for the whole country.

unknown 40:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

So, yeah. So that was that extra piece of it that when we got back, then we had to go get my sister.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Um, if I could back up just a little bit. Go ahead. Um, you're talking about counseling and it didn't used to be a thing. I remember when I was growing up, this was a long time ago, I won't tell you when, that um counselors were considered quacks. Yeah. And in my family, um, if anybody needed counseling, oh, they were crazy. They were lunatics because they they didn't, you know, they didn't need it.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

It doesn't help you because if you're saying that you need help and you're going to get help, and then people's making fun of you saying, Oh, yeah, you're crazy. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

It was like it doesn't really, and it was looked down upon, and and people who needed help I think it's some family. Oh, that person. I well, I know somebody specifically, but I'm not going to mention who they are, that was you know talked about because they went and got counseling. And it's like, why did we do that?

SPEAKER_01 41:33

I think it still happens.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

It still happens. There are still some environments and cultures. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's still a thing in certain cultures. Um, there are people who still um feel that and um are embarrassed about the the need. Um, you know, and that's unfortunate. We we are certainly working on, I think as a society, what that looks like, but there's still cultures where that's a problem. Um, unfortunately, I feel like it's still a stigma for men.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Yeah, yeah, it is to reach out. For men, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

And even the types of therapy, because it's like there's one that's even accepted where, okay, you're going to just talk to the counselor, that's okay. But then the other one where you're going and you're getting drugs from the counselor, people look at that like, oh, they're just drugging.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Yeah, there's a difference between yeah, some people feel a difference between um a therapist and a psychiatrist. There we go. Um the minute that you know medication is being administered. Well, now, especially, you know, sometimes in in in the Christian um environment that you're not leaning on God enough and you're using, you know, drugs to fix something that He can fix. Um, so and that's probably a whole nother podcast. Yeah, that's a whole nother subject. But mental health is real, yeah. It it is real. And anyone else, you know, that's how we got here was what would I recommend first? That's what I would recommend first. There is no preparation for things like this. Nothing in most people's experience will prepare you for something like this.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Hopefully, this is a one-in-a-lifetime experience that no one else will have, and there's no preparation for this. So needing to process that and walk that through with someone else, because sometimes you need someone else to hear your words. And if you don't have spaces that you feel safe in to do that with other people, then this is what you need. Um, so that's the first thing I would say is get some help. I had no problem getting help both times. And again, it's fortunate enough in two situations where it really wasn't even left up to me. The university and the organization said, Oh no, we're we're we're paying for this.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

You know, most companies being HR, um, EAP employee assistance program. We'll give you four to six free sessions with a therapist anyway. In situations like mine, like the one in the college, we had to go for a year. And the university paid for it. So, you know, I was in situations where it would have been something to be done anyway, but they really didn't give us the option. They're like, we're paying for it and you're going because this is tragic and life-changing, and you you need to walk through this, especially at 19. Wow. And then to have that happen later, let's see if Anthony was four. I was 26.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

You were 27.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

I was young. Um and then we never told him, he was four. He wouldn't have understood. And so we just didn't talk about it around him. And then I just kind of forgot we never told him. So then unfortunately, the first time he heard a story was at church.

unknown 45:04

No.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

When I'm standing on the platform telling it at the 10-year anniversary, and I look down, he's two rows back, and his eyes are big as saucers, and his jaws dropped, and I realized at that moment that I never told him.

unknown 45:18

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

How how did he take it after that? Did he understand that you're trying to go so through something on your own and you had your own wounds that you're protecting?

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Well, I mean, it's honest. He was four. He would not have understood it at the time it happened.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

But you didn't know a time and a place to ever.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

No, it just Yeah, when you're yeah, when you're trying to get on with it yourself, it just it never occurs to you. And then I just thought at some point we had talked about it, but the look on his face that day was very clear that we had not talked about it at all. And so he was a little taken aback that he didn't know that he could have lost his mother.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

And he found out with everybody else. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

I feel bad about that.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Um but at least his mama's alive. I mean Yeah. I I know that, you know, pain is still pain. But yeah. I mean, yeah. You're here. That's that's the best part.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Well, you've sort of touched on this next question here. Um, did that day change the way you viewed the little moments or decisions that you make every day?

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

Yeah, you kind of touched on that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Yeah. I am very I've I was always detail oriented, but I even more so in that and paying attention to the small things. Now, I'll be honest, for a while it made me a little paranoid. I was looking over my shoulder a lot um the first few years. Just what was that? What was that? I mean, any noise just you know, um was part of that.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

But have you been in an earthquake since?

SPEAKER_00 46:57

I have actually.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

How was that?

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Um, well, it woke me up in the middle of the night, so I was a little disoriented. But it wasn't the same feeling. No, well, the vibration under my feet, yes. Um, it didn't have the same level of intensity. It wasn't like a six or a seven, it was like a four. Oh, work trip again. Um, I was in California and uh for a work trip.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

All you do is work, work, work, work, work.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Well, I should stop traveling, apparently. Um, so different company. I was in California and experienced my first earthquake overnight in a hotel. So the aftershocks the next day were creepy. Now that was creepy. Um, so zero out of ten, don't recommend. But it just made me more aware of being present in the moment. There's something about because what I kept going back to, and it's one of the details I brought up earlier, was being afraid that I wouldn't be around to see my child grow up.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

And so I was very aware of moments with him and being present in that space. I pushed really hard to finish degrees and a lot of certifications so that by the time he entered school, I could focus and be present for my child and not still be trying to climb the ladder. If it happens, great. If it doesn't, you know, this is the focus. And I don't know that I would have thought that way prior.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

It put it into perspective.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

So were you a stay-at-home mom when he was young?

SPEAKER_00 48:27

No. No, no, no, but I was very um career-driven.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Very, very career driven. Um, and this kind of shifted some of that because he was my first thought when I wasn't sure if I was gonna get home. Was that I had a four-year-old at home.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Um the mom kicked in. It wasn't my job. It's I'm a mom. Right. How am I getting home?

SPEAKER_00 48:54

I didn't even think about the job yet. It was, you know, how am I gonna get home to my child? And then later the friends I lost um in the towers and their children who then had to grow up without their parents. Their moms and dads and that's terrible. Yeah, we all keep in touch. There's a there's a there's a survivors conference call that we normally get on every year. Um, and just kind of touch base. And then two of my friends that were NHR at the time, um, I have a separate phone call with their with uh one girl, her husband, and their boys, because one of the boys was the exact same age as Anthony. That's how we got to be friends. And her parents live here in Arizona, and so when she would come visit her folks, I would see her. But we had had dinner scheduled that night, and um, she never made it home. And she had a four and a six-year-old at the time.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

And you had a four-year-old. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

That's what connect us. We had one boy was yeah, the same age. So now he's 29, 30, and hasn't had his mother in 25 years.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

People hear your story and immediately think about uh what if. You've covered some of it, but how do you personally handle those thoughts over the years?

SPEAKER_00 50:21

I'd love to say they stopped, but they haven't.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Have they gotten milder? Are they still as strong as they were?

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Um it's milder. When I have a what if moment somewhere else, it kind of triggers this. Um, you know, what if I hadn't what if I and then my brain goes, yeah, you got some really big what-ifs that somehow you manage to work through. You can work through this. If anything, it's more of a reminder of what I can do in that space. Because part of spiraling in a what if is something you can't control.

unknown 50:59

Right?

SPEAKER_00 50:59

What if this happens? What if that happens? It forces you to look at, okay, what if that happens? What what's the worst? Okay, so what if that happens, then what do you do? If you take yourself to that end and say, okay, if that's what happens, how do you recover? How do you recover? What are you gonna do? The bottom line is you can't control it as much as you would love to, and I am a recovering control freak. Um and I in most of those instances, my mind will say, Well, you couldn't control that either. Did you have any control over what happened that day? No, your alarm clock was broken.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

That's just mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

Yeah, it took a lot of years to process that I'm still here because my alarm clock was broken.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Did you save that alarm clock? Put a little keepsake. I wanted no part.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

I wanted no part of that alarm clock. And remember I'm sorry. Yeah, and remember, you know, when you're getting an evacuation notice from NYPD, you are not thinking about keepsakes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Um I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

It's okay. No, it just I I I yeah. That I have a few photos from that day, but um, I rarely look at those either. Um, but that's that's it. I mean, there's enough out there to to remind you every year. And I talk to the widow of the one person that we lost every year.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Is it hard when you turn on the TV every year around a 9-11 and you see the world, you know, remembering things? Is it hard from that perspective of the public's perception and and watching it?

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Now it wasn't, it was sad before. Um, like I said, it's harder now because it feels like talking about a piece of history. And I don't know, I I just never thought, as young as I am, and this started, you know, some years back when I was even younger, um, hearing people talk about it like we talk about historical events, you know, but that's always felt disconnected to me. And so now I'm starting to understand, since we have adults that are alive now that never witnessed this, or it's not a where were you when to them. I mean, you've heard parents and grandparents talk about where were you when um President Kennedy was assassinated, where were you when we all have, you know, we have stories like that, but there's a group of individuals now that are adults who don't have a story like that. Yeah. And so they don't understand the significance of what happened. They're growing up in a space where airport security has always looked like this.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

They're growing up in a space where TSA is what it is, they don't know any time before TSA. We know TSA was created because of 9-11.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

We remember being able to go up to the gate to greet someone off, and you can't do that now.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

No.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

Um, they don't know anything beyond looking online for the rules when you pack. We know a time before that. And so to see people who have actually grown up in the changes that happened since 9-11, they are disconnected from it.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

And it's weird for me to be on the other side of that conversation. So many times when you're sitting in class or listening to someone, whether you respect them or you're in awe of it or not, you still are somewhat disconnected because it's events that don't connect to you.

SPEAKER_03 54:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

But now the people in this room are old enough that we all have our own stories about what happened that day. And they're adults that would hear that and appreciate it, but they're still disconnected. They don't get the bigger picture of what that is.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Um I think we need people like, you know, victims and survivors and stuff like that, because otherwise we just get the historical accounts. It's almost like reading the Bible from something that happened 2,000 years ago. And it's hard to find our picture and place in that reality where if I'm turning on the news and I'm watching, you know, the historical effects of what happened with 9-11, and then I know somebody like Christine that says, you know, it's beyond that. Like I was there, I lost friends. They're not talking about everything, they're talking about the the buildings and you know, the historical things that happened to the country. But these are people that, you know, was in my workplace and my community and my friends, and you know, and so I think we still need those conversations for sure, because otherwise it makes those events not personalized. Yeah. We don't have a connection. We don't have to.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

I was about to say that's where the connection is lost. If you don't have those people, that's where it's lost. Um, but yeah, that's kind of how I feel when I see it now. It just I can see how they're disconnected from it. I can see how for a lot of people it's just a point in history that they don't have any relationship with. And that's that's sad. But the world moves on even sometimes when we don't.

unknown 55:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

You've touched on several topics here. Um, it may be hard for you to uh digest this, I guess. But what has been the biggest thing you've learned from this experience? You've talked about several things, but is there one item that sticks out as the biggest or the most important?

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Or that no matter how much we plan, there are things beyond our control.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

That's a great idea.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

That's true. How many times do do we do that? On tomorrow I'm gonna go do this, and then you're in a car wreck the night before, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Yeah. That's the biggest thing. Because I've always been, like I said, I'm a recovering control freak. So um I like to plan and organize and and be in charge of things. But I tell you, something like that will make you step back for a minute. Doesn't mean I don't have my moments where I relapse back into control things, but something like that will make you think about the things you don't have control over. When your life has been spared by a broken alarm clock, you realize you don't have control. No, no, you don't. You don't. You think my belief system would be better at teaching me that, but that broken alarm clock was pretty effective as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Yeah, that's and if that happened to something like my wife, my wife is she is late for everything. So she would be like, see, I don't have to be early because if I'm early, Jake, I might die. And I'm glad that you have a different perspective of, you know, I still need to respect time. I still need to be early, but you know, if I'm not, maybe there's a reason.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

Yeah, there's maybe a reason for it.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

If I'm not, if I'm not where I'm if if something just completely out of the way has happened, there was a reason for that. I don't so much now say, I don't understand why that happened. Yeah, there are a lot of things I don't understand why they happened. Um, and maybe it's not on me to understand. So that that's what it gave me. Yeah, it didn't stop me from being timely. Uh it just made me appreciate the things that aren't on my time.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

It made you appreciate being late.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

Even though I don't know that I can say that.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Even though, even though you don't appreciate being late, you're you like to be early. I know you. I don't, I you But I'm just saying that even when giving those circumstances, it made you appreciate, okay, well, I'm glad I was late.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

I combine it with the other situation where it was a happenstance that, you know, I wasn't where I should have been. Um, so I think I look at it more not being late, but again, not being in control of every part of what's going on. I can only control this the stuff I I can, but as long as other things are involved, other environments, other people, other things are around, that can always shift what's happening to you. And that's what it taught me was that unless I'm completely isolated by myself and nothing else is involved here, I can't control it all.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

And even though you're late from our perspective, God was ordering your steps and you weren't late for anything. You were right where you were supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

I was right where I was supposed to be. And that's again what I sometimes will say to my husband when we're late to something and we were on time and some crazy thing happens that doesn't clearly we're where we're supposed to be. Yeah. And he'll see that look on my face and get quiet. He knows where I'm coming from with that. So because he doesn't like to be late either.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

Yeah. How has your perspective of on people and relationships or even life changed since then?

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Um I've never been good at saying goodbye or letting people go.

SPEAKER_01 59:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

Um my mother had a stint when I was young as a a nurse at a nursing home. And I would sometimes get attached to some of the people that were there. Um and because small town school bus would drop you off wherever you needed to. Everyone knew my mother. She was the director of nursing at that particular area. And so they would drop me off there. And so I'd spend my, you know, last couple of hours of the day doing homework, and then, you know, before we would head home, and I kind of got attached to some of the older people there. And it was typically the ones that didn't have a lot of their family visiting. And I think they saw their grandkids in me. And you come in one day and the bed's empty because they're gone. And so I didn't, I was born into a family where a lot of people were older, and so I feel like I lost people, a lot of my family, early when I was young. And so you'd think that would make me better at it, um, but it didn't, it made me worse. Um, I'm really not good at saying goodbye and and letting people go. Um and so when I lost friends in this, it would have been easy because it was painful to not stay connected with their families.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

And I think this situation is where I learned to reach out, especially with people that have similar stories. Um because it would be easy. I mean, there are survivors that started out on this conference call the first few years who haven't been back since.

unknown 1:01:29

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

Because they don't they don't want to talk about it anymore. They don't want to relive it. And being in that space with other people who've experienced it doesn't give them a feeling of safety. It reminds them of what they went through. And they don't want that reminder anymore. And that's okay. I understand that. Everyone has to process emotions how they need to. Um, but for me, like I said, for me, even the first few years, there was a safety in grieving in public because everybody was grieving. It was fresh.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

It was for something different, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

I mean, we all, it was all, we all had our own perspective on where we were, but we were all still grieving it. And so I felt safe in that. And I think a lot of people did. But as the years went on, and like we talked about, life kind of moves on and people keep moving. The only people that still really held it were those of us that were directly affected.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

And I think they just wanted to move on like the rest of the world, and don't want to talk about it anymore. And that's okay. I understand that. I, like I said, I never publicly gave any conversation about it until it was 10 years in. I was in a Bible study, we were talking about 9-11, and I kind of let it slip that I had a direct connection. Um, and then that was that might have been year nine. And then we hit the 10-year, and someone in leadership at the church, I won't drop names, but it, you know, I'll tell you the name later, gave me a phone call and said, This is I I heard you have a direct connection with this. Is that true? And I said, Yeah, I did I I do, and asked me to speak on it and said, if you don't want to, that's fine. Yeah. Because my understanding is you've never talked about any of this in public.

unknown 1:03:17

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

Okay. So give it some days. I'm not gonna rush you. It's plenty of time because they call me like the first of August. You got plenty of time. Make that decision when you're ready. Um, and if it's no, that's okay too. If you're not ready, that's okay too.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

Um, but the fact that no one had ever asked me about it in 10 years, I was pretty clear that was a sign it was time. So I made the decision to do it then. Um but yeah, I I think the biggest thing in that is understanding what a safe space is. And I think some people don't have a safe space or don't want a safe space to continue to talk about it. It was 25 years ago, let it go, right? Um, but there are still so many things. They process differently. And there's so many things.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:09

Some people have silence.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

Yes, and then there are some things that as you grow and evolve as a person, when you look back on it, you see now that you didn't see back then because you were in it. Sometimes you need the distance to understand what really happened. But I understand for some people that's not something they want to do, and that's fine. But I think that's where I learned how to sit in a safe space with people with a similar situation and have the conversation. Because again, one of the biggest lies the enemy loves to tell you is that you're alone in how you feel. Yeah. That no one else will understand what you're going through.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

Yeah. That's not true because we're all we're all in the same boat with different waves. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:53

Um you've touched on this and you probably answered it, but I didn't know if there was anything else you wanted to add. Um, what do you think people who weren't there can never fully understand about that day?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

Ooh, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

Yeah, how it they don't understand the the how it changed history. And you're right, I did kind of touch on that. It's the lived experience they have now that is their normal, that just wasn't before. Um, so yeah, it is those things that exist now that we forget about even now, 25 years later. The TSA didn't exist before 9-11. Um that flying was actually more of a social experience than what it is now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:35

Smoking and non-smoking, all kinds of smoking.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

It was absolutely a social experience. I'll be honest, I don't get any enjoyment out of the the flying and airport experience anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

I don't either. We we've flown since 9 11, and it's it's it's just it's horrible.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

Yeah, I've had I've had the privilege to since I've flown commercial many times, but I've had the privilege to on rare occasions. Fly a semi-private flight. Oh my gosh. Talk about bringing back memories. Like there is no TSA. They rub your bag with this little wipe, and then boom, you're on the plane within five minutes. You there's no line, there's no nothing. And it's it's a weird process that it brings back memories. And I'm old enough to realize what TSA felt like prior to TSA. And in other episodes I've mentioned where I've had a primate. I've had a monkey in in you know my younger life. And I used to be able to travel with my monkey. And I it's funny to say, but I I would carry this, you know, this animal carry-on container, and I'd have Simba, uh, uh a stuffed animal, Simba, inside the container, and my monkey would actually be inside my shirt on me. I'd go through the little metal detector and go through that. Was all pre, you know, TSA. That would never, ever happen nowadays. Like there's just certain things that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

There's there's certain things that they have no concept of. The biggest thing when I've talked to a few young people for them that they would love to have back is because some of them travel without their parents. Um, you can be an unaccompanied minor and travel on an airplane.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

My wife did that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:23

My son did that a lot because our entire family's in Georgia. And so we would ship him back to spend summers with his family so that he wouldn't lose that familial connection with the family in Georgia. Yeah. Um, but what they would love to have back that they have no concept of is getting off a plane and having your family right there at the gate. I've said that to a few of them and the look on their faces of wow, and how much they would have would love to have that. And me realizing, oh my God, you have no concept of what that is. Because this was 25 years ago and you're 18.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:55

Yeah, your whole life is.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:56

Your whole life has been this. So you have no understanding of what it used to feel like.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

Airport freedom.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Right. You have no understanding of what flying in the airport experience and air travel, that's probably the best words to encompass all the space, um, used to look like as opposed to now. Um, and it, and that's what reminded me of why I don't like it now. I'm like, this is this is why I have this level of anxiety from the moment I hit the airport until I make to my destination. And I've done a couple semi-private, we've, you know, done some first class. It's just not the same. And some of that could be for me for personal reasons, it may never be the same. But I've heard it from too many other people that were alive then and not directly connected as me that have lost it. It just that shift, I don't think people alive now that weren't then will ever understand how that shift feels. Although they are starting to get it with the world after the pandemic. Yeah. And I have said to so many young people um in the past year or so that the pandemic is your 9-11.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:07

Yeah. They don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

If you did if right, if you don't understand what we're talking about when we talk about 9-11, actually you do, because think about what your life was before 2020 and what it looks like now and how it shifted and the impact of social media and how we feel about virology and vaccination and all these other work from home. Work from home. I didn't realize I hadn't been to a buffet since 2020 until last week. Exactly. I'd forgotten.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

And then it's a whole occur to me. Wait a minute. What am I supposed to be doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:40

I used to love the Golden Corral. Okay, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

Or hometown way back in the day.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

I hadn't even thought about it in six years. Never even occurred to me that I hadn't gone. Um, but yeah, so when I bring it to them that way, they're like, oh yeah, yeah, you you have a 9-11. Yeah, it's the pandemic because this that shifted your life. The reality we're in now doesn't look like what your reality looked like six years prior. So you do have some understanding of what we're talking about. Unfortunately, you have that. Fortunately or unfortunately, I think you needed something. Yeah. Um, but it gives us a foundation with which to start having those conversations. So that's kind of where I go with it now, Ray, is to say, actually, you do understand.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:24

That's that's really good. Um, and again, some of these questions as we're wrapping up might feel like you've already, you know, tackled them. Um if you if you have, we can skip them. Or if if you feel like you have something different to add, you know, that'd be great too. When people hear your story, what do you hope, you know, that they take away from it?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:52

Um how life can change in an instant.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:00

Yeah. We're not guaranteed.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:04

That's what I hope they hear in it. That that life can change in an instant. That you don't have control over every circumstance. And that you can get through something like this. Because a lot of times when we hear stories and people are talking, you walk and go, Wow, I can't imagine how I would Well, you may not know what you would do, but you can you can get through that. Yeah. Because the people standing in front of you have managed. So it may not be something you can imagine now, and I hope you never do, have to do it, but you can.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

Yeah. It's something you're capable of doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:45

We're all capable. Because every person you hear with stories like this didn't think they were capable either. And there's nothing particularly special about any of us. It's the human condition that we will figure out a way to survive.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

Yeah. That's really good. If you could sit down with yourself on the morning of 9-11 before anything happened, what would you say to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:10

Mistakes can be blessings too.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

That's that's easy.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:18

I had to write a letter to myself. It was an exercise given by the therapist at the time. Forgiving myself for being late.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

You have to you had to forgive yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:37

I had to forgive myself for that. Again, survivor's guilt.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

Um, from that aspect of it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:43

I had to write a letter when I was ready to forgive myself. Um because I had so much guilt about being the one out of the two of us. He took one and left one. And I had a lot of struggle with that. Once I got home and realized what happened, that the only person lost in this state was on the same plane with me going there. Was supposed to be in this, we were supposed to be in the same space together at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:20

The only person lost in the state, not in the company, but in the state.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:23

In the state of Arizona. We only lost one person in 9-11, and they worked for the same company. I did.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:30

I never knew that for some reason. I didn't know how many. I figured there were more than one from Arizona, but I didn't know that. I'd never heard that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

There are lots of people from Arizona that are survivors. Um, we only lost one in New York. And we lost, I think we lost some in some other areas. Correct. But only one in New York. In New York. Okay. And we he and I worked for the same company.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:52

Wow. Okay. I never knew that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:53

Yeah, he was a new employee, and I, like I said, I met him at the gate. Um so when that hit, that there were two of us, and only one of us came home. I had a hard time with that. And so I had to write myself a letter of forgiveness and being okay with because this was not under my control, but somehow I felt responsible for what happened and guilty that I came back and then trying to figure out why God did it. Well, his kids were grown, and mine was four, and this was not my choice. No. And so I had to write myself a letter to relieve myself of it's not your fault. Yeah. Of fault because I was doing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

So in that space is where I gave myself permission to make mistakes, to that things are gonna happen to me. Again, that I can't control everything. Because yeah, I went back to the well, if I had, you know, called down for a wake-up call, that wouldn't have happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

If I had set because I had a company phone at the time, if I had set the company phone and the alarm, then I would have got you know, all this woulda, coulda, shulda. And so I had to perform an exercise. I guess I said it one too many times, so she she assigned me an exercise to alleviate myself of that. And so I had to write it out and read it out and then burn it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:28

Like the Bart Simpson chuck burport, and you had to write it out like a million times.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

Well, not not that way because I was not in trouble. But yeah, more of a, you know, you've you've burned it, let it let it go. And so I would look at her and go, you're about to have a lot of feelings about some things that you think are yours to control and they're not.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:49

That's really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:50

And to be honest, you've already been here before in a situation in a space with something you could not control.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:59

Glean from that. I would warn her that it's coming again. Because I'd already been there.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:07

I feel like I want to answer this for you because I think I know what your answer is, but I um what is something you never take for granted now? And I I'm gonna answer it for you and say family.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:18

Yes. Never.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:21

Yeah. Because you were the way you talked about trying to uh get in touch with Charles and everything, and and leaving your your child at home. I I mean that just resonates through the whole the whole uh episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:37

Yeah, and talking to them afterwards for sure. Um because as tough as it was on my side of it, at least I knew where I was. Um imagine being the father of a young four-year-old trying not to panic because you got one message from your wife an hour and a half ago. A lot of things have changed, and you've reached out four hours since you heard from him. And there's no response. And it was probably another I mean, by the end of it, it might have been eight to ten hours before I responded again. Oh, yeah. And so he's at home trying not to panic in front of a four-year-old. My family's calling him. Have you heard anything?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

Right. Stressing him out. Stressing him out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:21

And and that's not even the first time he'd been through that because the whole thing at the college we were dating at the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:27

Oh no, he went through that too. He went through that with me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:31

So when all that happened, it got to the campus that there had been a shooting. And all he heard was the shooting and the apartment number. He didn't know if I was involved or not.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:41

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:42

So I couldn't get in contact with him until I got to the hospital. And I remember her picking up the phone and he's like, Are you okay? And I'm like, I know you're upset, but I need you to stop shouting. Like, I'm in the room with my roommate. She's got a hole right here. And dude, I get it, but could you could you not just for a second? I'm a little stressed out. Um, yeah, it it put all that into perspective because I was terrified that I wasn't gonna be able to make it home, but I knew where I was and what was going on. But to to hear it from his side, to not know where I was and hear it at work where all the administrative assistants are calling the families of five or six of us because they don't know where any of us are, they don't know where I am. There were two or three others that were in Washington, they didn't know where Linda Hagin and a couple other people were, and just all that, all that, and to hear it from them going, we were on pens and needles trying to get a hold of you guys, the families calling us to see just in case we've heard anything, because some of them, again, never got a chance to send out anything before communication went down. And so one woman that was in Washington, her adult kids are freaking out because they never heard from her. That's until that night. So it just, you know, hearing it hearing the the torment and angst of waiting and hoping that they're okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:09

Well, I think I may be wrong here, but uh I'm I'm thinking that um this may be one reason why Charles is doing what he's doing with chaplaincy, because he's been through difficult times and he's able to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:25

He's a strong guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:26

Yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

Yeah, I mean, there are things in his childhood too, um, that are his story to tell. Um and yeah, that's kind of the way he wraps it up, is that I I do what I do because I wish I had had someone like me in my life when those things happened. Yeah. That's usually the sentence he gives. That's the way I read that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. When people ask him, that's his answer. Okay. Um, yeah. He wants that, he wants people to have that support that he didn't have in situations that he's been in. And yeah, I have jokingly said, Man, I have put you through some doozies. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:59

Well, to shout Charles out, because we've been talking about him for a few minutes. Um, Charles is Christine's husband, and he has actually been a guest on this show. This is episode 43, and he's been a guest in the past. He was on episode 40 called Digital Souls. It came out around August 20th. And um, if you want to know more about Charles and how great of a guy he he is in his own voice, check out that episode 40, Digital Souls. So, Christine, I got a question because I know that all this evolved around you traveling for work. Yep. And I know that 25 years later you still travel for work.

unknown 1:20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

Do you when you travel between, you know, the year after this event or 25 years later, do you travel differently? Do you say goodbye to Charles and Anthony differently? Do you look at, you know, things differently as you leave? Is there what's changed since when you left on 9-11 to New York to when you typically leave now for places?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:11

Um luckily I don't travel as much for work anymore. I never really enjoyed it. I thought I would. I worked really hard to get into a role where I could travel for work, only to find out that I only like to travel for pleasure. I don't like work travel. So I try to get out of it as much as I can. It doesn't always work. Um, but I try to get out of it. Um, so that's what Zoom's for. And I will use it when I can. Um, that was one of the good things about before mentioned pandemic. Um anyway. Um it didn't change, it not only changed when I fly, but it just changes when we leave each other in general. Um I'm always aware of the last thing they wore. Thanks to security cameras. When they leave the door, you can when they leave, you can see their clothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

You remember that.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:02

I always want to know the ring doorbell helping.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:05

So I always look to see what they were wearing. Um if there are changes in the schedule, if there's a stop somewhere, if there's a we text. If you you're headed to work, you just send a here when you get there. Updates. Yep. When you're leaving, headed home. If there's stops, we document that. And we have done that since this. So so that happens when we're separate, you know, overnight for things, you know, for travel for work, because Charles will travel for work every once in a while too. Um but we just took it into our everyday lives. So it's not just something that changed the way we try do air travel, just leaving each other in general.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

When I got here, I texted here.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:52

That's what we do.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:54

That's what we do.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:56

My wife and I used to do that, but I mean, we haven't gone through a tragedy that has called for us to do that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:02

So I think between the tragedy with me and the first responder and him, we just want to know.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:08

Yeah. Oh, that's great. After everything that you've experienced, what message do you want people listening today to remember?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:20

From this episode, probably the biggest thing is you never know what someone's carrying. And I know we say that a lot and it's cliche.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:26

Mental health is real.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:28

Yeah. But you don't know what people are carrying. If you don't hear anything else from me today, I hope you hear that you don't know what everyone is carrying. And that something to you that is just an event could be a life-altering situation for someone else. So be kind when you speak on it. Be aware of your your social spaces when you talk about events because you never know how the person next to you experienced it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

Wow. Thank you for sharing your your emotions, your thoughts, your feelings, your real stories, your vulnerableness. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:14

Yeah, this has been a uh a real eye-opener for me. I mean, I I I had known before that you'd gone through it, but I had never heard the whole story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:22

Yeah, she's been real brief at church, but I mean, this this has been very detailed, and and I appreciate and I honor and respect her. Thank you for doing it for us. I mean, Ray, though, Ray's been very creative lately. Let's go on a lighter side before we leave. Ray has he's ready to put a smile on your face. He oh, good. He's been creative. He wrote some limericks. He was thinking about you. And yeah, Ray, Ray thinks that he might actually uh turn a new leaf and try and write everybody a limerick from now on.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:56

That's my goal, is every guest that we have write a limerick about them.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:59

I like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:00

Okay. So I I wrote one. Okay. Then I got an inspiration and wrote the second one.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:04

Oh, so we can find out what's your favorite.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:07

Okay. So, yeah. There was a great lady Christine who really liked being seen. She dressed extra fine because she owned a gold mine that she bought when she was a teen. That was cute.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:23

If only.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:25

Oh. I have some gold. Okay.

unknown 1:25:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:30

Here's another one.

unknown 1:25:31

Okay. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:32

There was a young lady, Christine, who kept everything so pristine. She cleaned up her house, including the mouse, even bought him a new pair of jeans.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:41

I think I like the second one. No.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:43

I've been to Christine's house. She does not really have a mouse, so no, but it's clean.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:47

If she did, it'd be like Stuart Little. Man, it would be like Stuart Little taken care of, have his own house, his own little nook.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:55

And that would be the thing, his own house outside. And there would be no cooking of your food either, because ew.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:00

Right. Right. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:01

So um the second one's my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:03

That's to honor you.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:04

Thank you, Ray. I appreciate it. You're welcome. I needed the laugh.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

So we did some counselor talks today. Do you guys want to hear my counselor joke? Uh-oh. Okay, I'll hear that. I'm sorry, I said there'd be no jokes, but you know, you can't.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:16

We have to lighten it up at the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:17

After the medicine. My grief counselor died the other day. She was so good, I didn't even care.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:27

Oh my goodness. Okay, we're gonna think about that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:31

Wow. I'm happy. What are you guys talking about? Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:38

Okay. It's a joke. Yeah. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:43

I don't know. It seems plausible. I think that's why I'm like, wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:48

Jokes are supposed to feel not plausible. That she did a great job. Feels plausible.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:54

She was a plaudable.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:57

It didn't sound like it. Wow. That one takes a minute to process. Yes, it does. It's a joke, but it's deep too. When you think about it. What would ultimate healing look like? Hmm. It's making me think.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:13

I'm just saying. So I know I've given you this uh this time before and you threw it out the window.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:19

I will do it again.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:20

But uh this is your guest time. Do whatever you like. You got 30 seconds. I mean, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:27

You know, guys, after a a podcast like this, I would just use the 30 seconds again to express um that mental health is real. If you are feeling alone, isolated, find a safe space. No matter where that is or whom that is, um find a safe space to be yourself. Find a safe space to say the things you need to say. I think I've said this a couple of times now that the the biggest lie that the world and the enemy tells us is that. We are suffering alone. That no one else understands what we feel like or what we're experiencing. And that's just not true. There's too many people on the planet for situations to be that different. There is someone who feels and understands the way you do and can walk alongside you on that journey. So please reach out. I know it's a risk. It's vulnerability at its finest. It takes some courage to do, but it's worth it when it's done.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:37

That is true. That is real talk. We all need to uh I think that's that's the division though. I mean, the enemy, the government, everybody just tries to divide us and make us feel alone, like we're not, you know, worthy or we're not a part of that, or we're separated. You know, I just we get that everywhere in life, and I the enemy's really, really, really good about that. So the fact that you tackled, you know, making you feel alone, that's that's real talk. I mean, I think that'll hit a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:10

Well, because I I I agree with you that there are a lot of external resources that will tell you something different. But I've had too many times when I've sat down at a table eight, nine, ten people, you don't know everybody. You're there because someone invited you and there happens to be other people around. As the conversations continue, you start to hear more and more things that you have in common. And that's not what you're hearing in the rest of the ethosphere. And so that's why I say that because yeah, there are a lot of things externally that give you the impression that you know that this division is is normal and what it should be.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:43

But what tends to happen when we reach out or just sit down and have a conversation is that we find the commonality to there's there's like these invisible walls that once we have communication, I mean they they disappear. You know.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:56

And that's my point is that we all have the ability. Even if that continues, we have the ability to prove that wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:04

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:06

That's the way to make the wall disappear.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:08

Pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:08

Hit it, Ray! Okay. Well, folks, that's a wrap on episode 43, The Exception. Huge thank you to Christine for joining us, opening up and sharing her story with us. We'll be back next week with episode 44, and we can't wait to bring you what's next. Until then, make sure you're following Unfit for Radio with Shakers on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, and wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're enjoying the show, please leave a review. It helps more people find the podcast, and we truly appreciate the support. Unfit for Radio is independently produced and listener supported. If you'd like to help support the show, visit unfitforradio.bussprout.com and click the donation link, please.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:58

Got a question, comment, or suggestion, or even a guest recommendation. I need to write these shorter and simpler. Email us, tell me what I'm doing wrong, unfitfor Radio Show at gmail.com or text us at 602 767 3390. And we may feature it on a future episode. Wouldn't that be neat? Follow us on IG, Instagram for the oldies, UFR Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:26

Credits for this episode. Executive producer recorded by Jakers. Producer. Hey, yeah, that's me. Our guest, Christine. And UFR Music, Episode Mastery, and Season 3 Artwork by Ronald L. Jones on Instagram at Bonnie Cash Life. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:48

Remember, if you can't find the good, then be the good. Until next time, y'all.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:52

Peace. Peace by. Sayonara. She already left us. Yeah, she left us. She don't love us.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:59

I was too busy laughing. I couldn't.